'If you don't like eye contact, get a boob job'

This is a full transcript of the 1800 Seconds on Autism podcast ‘If you don’t like eye contact, get a boob job’ as released on 15 April 2020 and presented by Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.

JAMIE - This episode gets a little bit cheeky in places. So you may not want to listen to it with children around.

ROBYN - Also we recorded this before the Covid-19 outbreak and so there are references to things like travel and hand washing and all of that stuff was done before Covid-19, and before we knew about it. And also I was in San Francisco which, obviously I’m not in San Francisco right now because people are only allowed to travel for essential reasons.

JAMIE - Enjoy.

[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.]

EMMA - Why do you guys hate hand dryers?

ROBYN - They’re loud.

JAMIE - They’re horrible. Loud. Disruptive. Argh, they just make my brain stop working.

CARLY - It sounds like a really fast train to me. Women, or men, if you fancy a boob job. If you don’t like eye contact have a boob job. People will never look you in the eye again.

JAMIE - And all of these other business travellers are utterly confused as to why this guy is panting and puffing up his jacket and being given sippy cups of orange juice.

[Music]

ROBYN - Hello. This is 1800 Seconds on Autism, a podcast about being autistic. I’m Robyn Steward.

JAMIE - And I’m Jamie Knight. In this episode I get pretty distracted by a smell that I can’t seem to avoid.

ROBYN - And to take Jamie’s mind off that we get personal and a bit silly with autism activist and mum of two autistic kids, Carly Jones, who’s very funny. We also share some of our travel tips and experiences.

JAMIE - Let’s get going. We’ll start with the weirdness of me being in London and Robyn being all the way over in San Francisco.

[Music]

JAMIE - How do you think this is going to impact our recording?

ROBYN - Well, I don’t know if it’ll impact me particularly. I think it’s probably more weird for you guys because you’re used to me being in the same room.

JAMIE - It is a bit strange because I keep looking up to talk to you and of course you’re not there. This might get fun with the whole timing the conversation thing, there might be lots of awkward silences. [pauses] Like that one.

ROBYN - Yeah, well I’m sure it’ll be fine. Anyway, later we’ll be doing one of our phone outs with an autistic woman who has some great ideas on how to reduce the amount of eye contact people give you. And, well it’s a bit sexy really. [laughs] I can’t believe I’m saying that. Basically it’s a bit about boobs, that’s what it’s about. That’s a bit more precise. But first, let’s go through our wellbeing checklist. It’s a new thing for this series. Jamie, we measure energy… Well, I don’t know what I’m telling you for, Jamie, ‘cos you know that we measure energy by spoons, but anyway, how many spoons did you have today, Jamie?

JAMIE - I’m sat here now and I probably have about three. I’ve had a really weird week because my sleep’s been broken, so I’ve been managing like three or four spoons a day, but last night I slept really well so I think I’m on a solid three spoons at about 4 pm, which is a good day.

EMMA - Out of how many spoons would you say?

JAMIE - I think I started the day with six.

EMMA - And how many do you usually start the day with? Like on a good day.

JAMIE - A really good day, eight to ten.

EMMA - Okay, as you were.

JAMIE - Robyn, how are your spoons?

ROBYN - No, I think I feel okay.

JAMIE - Awesome. You sound good.

ROBYN - Thank you.

JAMIE - The next thing on our list is stims.

ROBYN - And that’s self-stimulating repetitive movements that are normally your body but could be your mouth. Or I guess it could be your mind I suppose. I’ve done a bit of research on stimming and I don’t think that there are clear boundaries about what is stimming and what is not. But do you know, I haven’t really got that many today, I’m pretty calm and I’m pretty happy.

JAMIE - Sounds great. Yeah, I’ve not been very stimmy today either. I had one little flap when I got into the studio where I was flapping and then the chair was banging, and then the banging chair was making me flap. Although to be honest, there is one sensory thing that’s driving me a bit crazy, which is I forgot to have a shower this morning and I kind of smell. And I keep being able to smell myself and it’s horrible, so I’m kind of trying my best not to break myself. So routines. Routines are really important. Oops.

EMMA - Why did you forget to have a shower?

JAMIE - I just had a completely off routine morning, because I got up really late because we were trying to maximise sleep, and then I got distracted with some work stuff that’s on fire and needs me to fix, and then the taxi was a bit late and then we were all kind of bundled out of the door. We did the leaving the flat checklist, so at least I’ve got everything. I’m not actually wearing the clothes I planned to wear either. These were the clothes I put on so I wasn’t naked, they’re not actually the clothes I planned to go outside wearing. But I didn’t remember that until I got into the car, so oops.

ROBYN - What are you wearing?

JAMIE - I’m wearing a t-shirt and some three quarter lengths. I think I might have gone mountain biking in these three quarter lengths. I’m pretty sure the t-shirt’s clean, or if it wasn’t clean it was also used for mountain biking, which might be why I smell.

ROBYN - Ah, so you mean you’re just not wearing a uniform?

JAMIE - I’m not wearing uniform today, no. And I really should have but I forgot and I got distracted and muddled and then out the door and oops.

ROBYN - Oh well. So finally, intense interests. People think that autistic people are super geeky. Well, some of us might identify that way, but some of us might say that we can just focus really well on particular topics. So Jamie, what are your intense interests right now?

JAMIE - Mountain bikes, still mountain bikes. I’ve got another one. I took one apart, completely rebuilt it, found that the bike shop had done something wrong and then I had to fix the thing they did wrong, which everyone was like, “Oh, you should tell the bike shop off,” but I was quietly kind of happy I had a thing to do.”

ROBYN - Well, I’m really into preparations for the next Robyn’s Rocket, but also my self-employment book.

JAMIE - Hmm-hmm. I stink.

EMMA - I can’t smell you.

JAMIE - Yeah, I can. Dear god.

EMMA - Oh. Is there anything I can do to help you at this point?

JAMIE - No. Can we Amazon order some deodorant? But then I’ll just smell of deodorant.

ROBYN - Eloise could…

JAMIE - It’s that whole anything I put on to mask the smell is as bad as the original smell, so…

ROBYN - Oh, okay.

JAMIE - It’s not the smell, it’s the intensity of the smell that I think gets me.

[Jingle: Email stim@bbc.co.uk]

JAMIE - Let’s do one of our call outs. How about we call Carly Jones?

CARLY - Hello.

JAMIE - Hello. Is that Carly?

CARLY - Yes, speaking. Hello.

JAMIE - Hello, it’s Jamie and…

ROBYN - And Robyn.

JAMIE - And Robyn’s here. Yay, we got you. I’ve got a bit of script. Actually it’s Robyn’s bit of script.

ROBYN - But I can just say who Carly is without needing to look at it. So, Carly…

JAMIE - No, the trick is to ask her who she is.

ROBYN - Oh, okay. Carly, who are you?

CARLY - Oh, hello. My name’s Carly. I’m 37.

JAMIE - That’s a prime number.

CARLY - I’m autistic, I was diagnosed autistic at 32. I’ve also got three daughters, two of which are also autistic. It definitely runs in the family - there’s a surprise - and I’ve been an autism advocate for, well, many years, mainly about autistic women and girls. I’m passionate about safeguarding policy loopholes, all of that kind of stuff. I’ll talk about it forever.

ROBYN - Also you’ve been given an MBE.

CARLY - Yes, that was the New Year Honours 2017, and it was a huge shock and I cried my eyes out and I had a cheese sandwich and I couldn’t finish my cheese sandwich because I was just so elated. And then of course you can’t tell anyone for six weeks. So luckily I’m rubbish at secrets but really good at rules, so because I knew it was a rule I was okay. If they’d said keep it a secret that would have been hard for me.

JAMIE - I’ve got a stupid question, so I’ll whisper it slowly so nobody else hears. [whispers] What’s an MBE?

CARLY - It’s Member of the British Empire, which is an honour awarded from the Queen.

ROBYN - And also you’ve made films and you’re an actress.

CARLY - I love acting, Robyn, and I’ll tell you why. Because I feel like I know what I’m going to say, I know what the other person’s going to say, and whatever I say has got to be right because it’s on a bit of paper and I even get told what to wear. It’s great, I don’t have to think at all, I just have to remember the lines. If only real life was the same.

JAMIE - Well, I don’t know about you but I’m always doing scripting for social situations so it would be really nice if other people followed my damned script. It’s when they go off script.

CARLY - I know, and they all go off script.

JAMIE - Yeah, they make up their own responses to the questions I ask. That’s not allowed.

CARLY - And when you yell, “Cut!” people look at you like you’re really weird. “Cut! Start again.” [laughs]

JAMIE - So I don’t want to give away too much information, but I hear you carry an interesting roll of stickers in your bag with something written on them.

CARLY - That’s right, okay. So if you hate hand dryers…

JAMIE - I do.

CARLY - And you think oh, I don’t want to use that public toilet…

JAMIE - I don’t.

CARLY - Because of the hand dryers, and then you can’t not wash your hands, because people judge you now if you don’t wash your hands don’t they, you can carry some post-it notes in your handbag or satchel, whatever. On every single post-it note in black marker write ‘out of order’. When you get to a public toilet whack those on the air dryers and then people will come in and go, “Oh no, the hand dryers are broken, we can’t use them.”

JAMIE - Do you take them off again when you leave?

CARLY - I do. Can you imagine if I left them on, that would be really naughty, but…

EMMA - Why do you guys hate hand dryers?

ROBYN - They’re loud.

JAMIE - Because they’re horrible. Loud, disruptive… Argh, they just make my brain stop working.

CARLY - It sounds like a really fast train to me. I tend to just wear jeans a lot and then rub my hands on my jeans. I don’t know if that’s unhygienic but…

ROBYN - That’s what I do.

CARLY - Do you, Robyn? It’s so much nicer isn’t it?

JAMIE - I’m nodding, but you can’t see me nodding because it’s a podcast.

EMMA - But is it a bit mean to stick those stickers on so nobody else can use them?

JAMIE - Oh, they’ve got paper towels. For the 30 seconds they’re in the bathroom, it’s going to certainly impact our day a lot more than it’s going to impact theirs.

CARLY - I’m a very quick wee-er.

ROBYN - But what happens if you need a poo?

JAMIE - This is genius.

CARLY - It’s a good tactic isn’t it?

JAMIE - Oh, talking of good tactics, there’s another question here.

CARLY - I know what’s coming up.

JAMIE - And the question reads, and I’m going to use the wording very carefully, in a recent online talk you told the audience that you have a particular asset which helps reduce eye contact which is helpful because autistic people don’t really like eye contact. Could you tell us more?

ROBYN - Most autistic people don’t like eye contact, but not all.

JAMIE - Yeah, I’m reading the script.

CARLY - On my 30th… Well, not actually on my 30th birthday, but for my 30th birthday I decided to have a boob job, so I went from having no boobs to big boobs, and nobody gives you eye contact. So that’s now my top tip. Women, or men, if you fancy a boob job, if you don’t like eye contact have a boob job. People will never look you in the eye again. In fact, I mean, it might get a bit expensive mightn’t it, but if you get your autism diagnosis and here’s a voucher for a boob job.

EMMA - It feels obvious, but why are they not looking in your eyes anymore?

CARLY - Because they’re looking at the boobs.

JAMIE - Because they’re perverts.

CARLY - [laughs]

JAMIE - Sorry, I’m gay, I’m not interested in boobs at all, so it’s fine.

ROBYN - It’s like having a dick implant.

CARLY - Oh, I don’t think I’d have one of those. People would talk.

ROBYN - I guess that’s the gay equivalent.

JAMIE - I think the gay equivalent is actually called a nelson, which is when they put a piercing through the end of your bits.

ROBYN - Oh yeah, but can you see that when the guy’s got his clothes on.

JAMIE - No.

EMMA - Would you get one, Robyn?

ROBYN - What, a nelson? I haven’t got a penis. [laughter]

EMMA - A boob job.

ROBYN - I know what you meant, I just thought I’d get that in there.

JAMIE - I’m being informed by somebody in the room who wishes to remain anonymous, it’s actually called a Prince Albert.

ROBYN - Sorry, a Prince Albert.

EMMA - Thanks, Ollie.

ROBYN - If anything I would rather not have boobs because I would love to be able to take my shirt off when I’m at the beach or something.

CARLY - I tell you what, if you really don’t want eye contact take the shirt off with the boob job. You might get arrested.

JAMIE - Sometimes my life gets very surreal.

CARLY - But blokes are allowed to take their shirts off and sunbathe, why aren’t women. Free the nipple, #free the nipple.

ROBYN - Right, so if women can’t take their shirt off, I guess because it’s like because the men will look at them but gay men can take their shirts off and that’s totally okay. I don’t understand that.

CARLY - They’re living their best life aren’t they? They really are.

ROBYN - Yes.

JAMIE - This topic has gone very surreal and I’ve run out of social skills to know how to answer.

CARLY - I do lower the tone of every conversation I’m in. But I saw this great thing online that said, I came, I saw, I made it awkward. I just feel like that’s my life’s purpose. I’ll arrive, I’ll be normal for five minutes, I’ll destroy everything and walk away. I’m sorry.

ROBYN - I wouldn’t interpret it like that, I would interpret it as I came, as in I… [laughter]

JAMIE - I’ve got other questions here, one of which is you home educate your two autistic daughters. Is there a reason why?

CARLY - Yes, there is a reason. I don’t know how, it was very hard to move on from that subject to that subject, but let’s try.

JAMIE - Awkward!

CARLY - The reason I home educate my daughters is because they didn’t really enjoy the school system particularly well and I feel that perhaps, I mean some reasons are sensory, like the lights might be too bright. The hustle and bustle. For me to learn I want to learn one lesson for a year and then go on to the next one, and when you’re at school you’re changing rooms and changing subjects kind of every 45 minutes to an hour or so, it’s mind boggling. Why do 11 GCSEs when you can do five great ones? That’s all you need to do, A levels anyway, why are we doing this to our kids?

JAMIE - That’s literally what I did. I did less GCSEs and I started a computer science degree with the Open University rather than study French.

CARLY - Oh fantastic. I’ve got no GCSEs you know?

JAMIE - I have some, and I have an A level, and that’s it. Qualifications have had nothing to do with what I do for my job.

ROBYN - I have no GCSEs.

CARLY - Yeah, Robyn, we’re in the same gang!

JAMIE - Oh, I feel left out now.

CARLY - Oh, well Jamie, we can pretend.

ROBYN - Yeah, we can pretend, Jamie, don’t worry. You can give your GCSEs to Lion.

JAMIE - Yeah, Lion’s got GCSEs. There you go.

ROBYN - Yeah, and an A level.

JAMIE - And an A level in media studies.

EMMA - And is it really common for autistic people…? Here I go again, is it really common for autistic people to not have any qualifications? I mean really, you know, autistic people who are very knowledgeable about stuff and employable and all that still have no GCSEs.

JAMIE - For a lot of autistic people we don’t tend to have qualifications in our areas of expertise. I can certainly talk about guys that I know. A lot of the time we get excluded from school so we end up doing alternative qualifications, like more vocational qualifications.

ROBYN - I do think though, there are a lot of autistic people that do well in academia. Like if they manage to get through school and then they get into university somehow. I know a lot of autistic people that have degrees and masters degrees and PhDs and things like that, but then I think they’re often the people that can really struggle with work.

JAMIE - This might be where our different experience has happened. So where I know most of the kind of employment, techy, nerdy types, you know more of the academic researcher type. So it’s really interesting how they have different experiences. Because when Emma was asking the question I was thinking, oh that’s a bit of a generalisation, it’s kind of like if the environment is right some autistic people will absolutely thrive in education and moving into work is terrifying. But for other autistic people, work we thrive, education we struggle. So, for example, for me, until I could teach myself things I learnt nothing useful, it was just a waste of time, until I got interested in something. Once I got interested in something I’d teach myself it to a level way beyond degree level in a couple of years and then go do it.

CARLY - On a personal note, just winging it. I know what I know and I’m really passionate about it and I’m just doing the best I can in that moment really.

JAMIE - What are your intense interests, other than what we know already?

CARLY - I really love animals. And the more work I do in Westminster the more in love I am with all of the animals that occupy Westminster.

JAMIE - What animals are in Westminster apart from the politicians?

CARLY - So, Number 10 has a cat called Larry. You can follow them on Twitter. The Cabinet Office has Evie and the Treasury has a cat called Gladstone.

JAMIE - Are they there to eat all the rats?

CARLY - Yeah, they’re the mousers. And they do a very good job. There are also therapy dogs in Whitehall. There’s one called Dougie, I follow him on Twitter. Do you know what, if I had time I would like to write maybe a children’s book about all the animals of Westminster.

JAMIE - I might have an analogy for you, which is sometimes I feel weird connections with things. Oh god, that sentence could really go anywhere, but on this occasion, when I was doing an A level in something or other, physics I think, we were in a science lab and there was a real human skeleton in a cabinet on the side, in a glass box, and I got the skeleton added to the register, because it didn’t feel fair.

CARLY - And it was also a person.

JAMIE - Yeah, it was a person. And I went back to the college five years later and the convention is still to add him to the register and nobody knew where it had come from. Nobody knew what his name was so I made one up and I think we called him Roger, Roger the skeleton. Or Roger S, for skeleton. And he’s still on the register at the college every time they use that room.

CARLY - Oh, do you know what, and actually who says we don’t have empathy? That’s massive empathy for somebody that did live and wanted to give their body to science, which is so…

JAMIE - Well, hopefully they wanted to.

CARLY - Yes. Next in another episode. Duh, duh, duh…

JAMIE - If you could make one change to the world in order to make it better for autistic people what would it be and why?

CARLY - I would have many out and proud autistic people in government and I would also have out and proud autistic people in the House of Lords in order to make sure that any law or policy that had gone through was reaching the hardest to reach in society, i.e. us, as we’re quite vulnerable really, and then filtered out to the overarching to everyone else. Because when you reach the hardest to reach person you reach everyone else on the way. And I really want to see an out and proud autistic prime minister one day.

JAMIE - That would be amazing. I think that’s an epic answer to that question. Shall I wrap up and start saying goodbye, Mrs producer lady?

EMMA - Yes.

JAMIE - Cheerio, bye-bye.

ROBYN - Bye.

CARLY - Bye.

[Jingle: Send any questions or thoughts to stim@bbc.co.uk.]

JAMIE - So for this show we wanted to talk about travel, and by golly, Robyn, you’re in San Francisco. How the hell did you get to San Francisco?

ROBYN - I walked.

JAMIE - Really? I suspect you didn’t.

ROBYN - [laughs] Sorry. No, I obviously didn’t walk. No, no, I took a plane.

JAMIE - So what I’d like to know is things like how do you prepare? How do you do packing? And what do you do whilst you’re in the plane?

ROBYN - Well, before I got confident with going on aeroplanes I used to go and visit the airport a month before. So I used to go to the terminal and look at what the… Like if I was flying Virgin like what the uniforms looked like so that I would be able to identify members of staff. And I might talk to them and find out like, you know, like terminals have the letters, like A, B and C, so I’d find out which area I needed to be in and what it looked like so that it wasn’t a big surprise when I got there, so that it was less processing. I like to know what I’m going to do on the plane, so I make myself a timetable when I get on the plane. I look through all the different film choices and I choose three and generally I have a nap and I schedule the nap to sort of fit in with whatever time zone I’m going to be in. And packing, well I always take my trumpet and I always take Henry.

JAMIE - The bat, support bat.

ROBYN - My support bat. It’s very important.

JAMIE - Can I share a bit of what I do?

ROBYN - Yeah.

JAMIE - So often I have someone like Ollie with me, and Ollie’s here in the studio today, cor, fancy that. Hey, Ollie.

OLLIE - Hello.

JAMIE - Ollie will make sure that we’re in the right place, on the right plane and that sort of thing. Generally when we prepare for travel I’m really bad at it, Ollie’s really good at it, so I just do what Ollie tells me to do.

OLLIE - Checklists.

JAMIE - So packing is something that before I had somebody helping me travel I needed to know exactly what was in my bag. So I had a spreadsheet and I would check things in and check things out and if people…

ROBYN - Is that like the one for your fridge?

JAMIE - A bit like the one I used to have for my fridge, exactly the same idea of I need to know what’s in there exactly or not at all. These days I go on the far more not at all, and my bag will have some colouring books, some Lego, an amount of clothing, but generally I’ll just ask someone else what should I be putting in here. Since I’ve been doing school uniform again, so wearing the same uniform every day, travelling’s got really easy, because I just go, I’m away for six days. One, two, three, four, five, six and done. If I didn’t have the support to travel I wouldn’t attempt any of the trips that I make. Like even coming in to the recording studios I would arrive really spaced out and broken. So Ollie’s a bit of a lifesaver there really.

ROBYN - I don’t find reading and writing easy, so everything is sort of in my head. I have a social story in my head for if my bag got lost in the airport, which happened once, because when I started going to America about ten years ago I just took a back pack, like I didn’t check any luggage, because I was worried that it might get lost. And then I was with Carol Povey, from the National Autistic Society in Russia and my bag got lost, and so did her bag, but Carol knew how to deal with it, and so because I watched Carol do it and I didn’t really have to do anything I could write myself a social story in my head and then if I was in that situation again I could just call up the social story and it would be there to tell me what to do.

EMMA - What’s a social story? That sounds like something you put on Instagram.

ROBYN - A social story is a concept that was developed by this lady called Carol Gray, and the idea of a social story is it’s not about making the person that the story is about feeling bad or good, it’s just about telling you what to do in a situation. So for example, if you needed a social story about playtime at school you might say, at 11 am every weekday we have play time. If it’s not raining we can play outside in the playground. The things we could play with are the climbing frame. Each class has a turn on the climbing frame. And so on and so on. So it just tells you the facts, not opinions or emotions, just the facts. But they could also be used for more complicated situations like if you had an argument with somebody you could have a social story that’s about how to resolve arguments with people.

JAMIE - So quite often they are text and words and little pictures. Because a lot of autistic people, we remember things visually better than words, so then we can pull up almost a flick book, a comic book of what we’re supposed to do in that scenario.

ROBYN - Oh yes, exactly.

EMMA - So do you have social stories as well, Jamie?

JAMIE - No. Well, actually that’s not entirely true, I have actual pictures. In my flat a lot of my routines, a friend of mine who’s an artist drew Lion doing all of the various things, like eating breakfast, brushing his teeth, getting dressed. And I have those Blu Tack-ed down the back of my bedroom door and then I remember the order that I’m supposed to do things because I remember the pictures of Lion doing the things. But if somebody asks me what order does this happen in I can’t verbally tell you but I can go and do it. I know what my answer is to this, but I’ll ask you first. What’s the most surreal or strange experience you’ve had whilst travelling?

ROBYN - That’s a really great question. I’m not entirely sure, I’m not sure what kind of surreal things you were thinking. What’s the most surreal experience you’ve had?

JAMIE - So I’ve got two. The first one is the first time I went on a pressure controlled aircraft, like a 747, was flying to the US. We’d done small flights and we thought it was fine, and as we took off my brain quietly went, you’re upside down. And of course that was quite scary and I was holding onto a friend of mine and I was like yeah, I feel like I’m floating upside down. And he gave the most wonderful piece of advice. “I can assure you you’re not.” And I was like, “Thank you for that, but you know, I get that I’m not but that’s how it feels.” So after I was fighting off of a shutdown and just generally looking really bad we worked out that the solution was deep pressure. So first of all one of my friends sat on me for a while which helped and then the air hostess went, “I know what, we’ll put him in one of the jump seats.” So they took me to the back of the plane and they strapped me to the jump seat with all of the belts as hard as they could, to the point where I could barely breathe. And it was brilliant. Finally it felt really good. And my friend, Mike, had to go and ask the stewards, “Have you got more belts? He’s wriggling too much.”

EMMA - Where did all the belts come from? What did they do?

JAMIE - So the jump seat, they’re the fold down seats at the back of the plane for the flight attendants to sit in during take-off and landing and an accident so they’re as safe as possible, but they’re full of these really big straps. So I sat in that seat and they did the straps up as hard as they could so I had lots of squeezing force and that stopped my body from thinking I was upside down.

EMMA - And why did it stop your body from thinking it was upside down?

JAMIE - I think it’s because it gave me a reference, like a solid point.

ROBYN - Proprioception.

JAMIE - Yeah, that’s the word for it.

ROBYN - Proprioception is how your body knows which way up you are and how far away your limbs are from your torso. And some autistic people find deep pressure is very calming, a bit like swaddling a baby, because it lets you know where your body is and which way up you are.

JAMIE - My second bit of the surreal story actually builds on that. So roll on a few years and we’ve worked out that I don’t fly particularly well. So through some strange combination of things I ended up in a business class flight to America on a BA 747. And what I’d done is I’d brought this jacket that inflates, and you inflate the jacket and you puff up but it squeezes you, and this was the test. So I was lying on one of the fold out beds just after take-off, as soon as they’d let you do it, squeezing this jacket, squeezing myself as hard as I could, and my ribs ached. And I wasn’t verbal but I had a sippy cup full of orange juice and for some reason, I just remember this surreal thing of I’m sat there going I’m the right way up, I’m the right way up, squeezing this thing, and a BA attendant is like, “Would you like more orange juice?” I was like, “Yeah, sure.” So she took away the sippy cup and came back and all of these other business travellers are utterly confused as to why this guy is panting and puffing up his jacket and being given sippy cups of orange juice. Oh, and Lion was just waving at them because I didn’t know what else to do.

EMMA - And they’re all drinking their flutes of champagne. What a beautiful picture to end this episode.

JAMIE - It’s been great chatting to you in San Francisco, Robyn.

ROBYN - Nice chatting to you in London, Jamie.

JAMIE - That’s almost it for this episode. If you have any travel stories or tips to add please email them to stim@bbc.co.uk.

ROBYN - And if you like what you hear you could subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts from. And don’t forget to share 1800 Seconds on Autism with your friends.

JAMIE - Thanks for listening.

ROBYN - Bye.

JAMIE - Bye.