Why are black people more likely to be sectioned?

8th October 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 181

Presented by Emma Tracey

EMMA- Hello, I’m Emma Tracey, this is Access All, and later in this episode we’ll be talking about why black people are four times more likely to be sectioned than the rest of the population. Here’s a clip.

[Clip]

MALE- I came home one day, I was screaming, shouting, trying to break things. Luckily, one of my uncles was a doctor and said, “We need to get him an ambulance, he’s having a manic episode.” I think after two days into my sectioning I kind of came back to myself and I tried to leave, and I got injected, and then I woke up in this room with my mum looking through the flap telling me that it’s all going to be all right.

[End of clip]

EMMA- More of that later on. I’ve got Kirsteen with me again. Hi, Kirsteen.

KIRSTEEN- Good to be back.

EMMA- Can I tell you a little story?

KIRSTEEN- Go on.

EMMA- A little happy story. Last week I was in London doing various things around the city, and I counted over a three and half to four day period I had 20 different assistants on the Transport for London network and National Rail. Every single arm I took to get me from one train to the next, up the stairs out of the station, down the stairs into the station, arrived exactly when they said they would, did exactly what I needed, and we had some great micro chats along the way, and two of them even said they were subscribed to the podcast.

KIRSTEEN- That’s amazing.

EMMA- Isn’t it so good to able to like say good news and say nice things, because we talk so much about how accessible travel can be so difficult.

KIRSTEEN- It must be something of a record. But I mean assisted travel when it works is fantastic, it’s just that nagging little feeling all the time that something’s going to go wrong, and when it goes wrong, it often goes really wrong.

EMMA- What’s the wrongest it’s gone for you?

KIRSTEEN- It was worse actually before I used a wheelchair. I would go up to Glasgow a lot. The reason I used it is because the platforms at Euston are soooo long.

EMMA- So you have MS, you’ve some mobility issues.

KIRSTEEN- Yeah.

EMMA- You’re a wheelchair user now, but before that you were ambulatory.

KIRSTEEN- Yeah. And then coming back late on a Sunday night from Glasgow and getting into Euston and waiting half an hour for assistance to arrive that doesn’t. Then just that awful thought of trying to hobble, I don’t know, is it 500 metres or more, and I’m on my knees by the time I get there.

EMMA- I think these sorts of news stories get so much traction, like Tanni Grey-Thompson crawling on and off trains, Frank Gardner, Security Correspondent, left on an airplane for X amount of time. Because people can’t actually believe it, like they kind of suddenly maybe have put themselves in your shoes and go, “Oh my god, that’s really, really rubbish.” And Frank Gardner, do you know what I mean, how has he been left on a plane?!

But we are so used to it that I feel like we take an awful lot of it on the chin, don’t we? And I think that’s why in one way it’s good to tell a good story, but in another way it’s good that we cover it so much on Access All, because we suck up so much of it and let so much of it drop because it’s too hard to be complaining all the time.

KIRSTEEN- Well, absolutely. And this used to happen to me before social media was a thing, but I don’t think even if Twitter was available then, or X as it’s called now, I would have thought of putting that on social media because it was just such an everyday thing.

EMMA- Yeah! [Laughs] It’s just like I washed my teeth and I was left on a train!

KIRSTEEN- Yeah. I didn’t know that that was a news story.

EMMA- Can I tell you a really quick story before we finish?

KIRSTEEN- Go on.

EMMA- I got the sleeper to Scotland recently, and often when you wake up the train has already stopped, it comes in really early, and then the breakfast guy came with the tea and stuff and I had it, and then I was like rushing and waiting on the edge of my bed, waiting for the assistance to arrive and was like, “Oh my goodness, what’s happening? Why is assistance not arriving?” And then there was a big announcement, but the speaker wasn’t working in my little room so I went out to check, I was like, “My assistance isn’t here yet, why is it not here yet?” and they were like, “Because we’re not in yet, we’re stuck at Carstairs!” [Laughter] We’re half an hour out of Edinburgh and here was me freaking out, all packed and all like made up and all ready to go. It was a good hour and a half from when I asked that question to when I actually got into Edinburgh, and I just felt so stupid, and I just thought, ‘Why could the person bringing me the tea not have just sort of mentioned it?!’

KIRSTEEN- The overall lesson is, it’s not just access that screws up sometimes, sometimes it’s a disabled person.

EMMA- Yeah! [Laughter]

KIRSTEEN- We haven’t always got the moral high ground.

MUSIC- Theme tune.

EMMA- Yes, I am Emma Tracey and this is Access All. I’ve got the lovely Kirsteen Knight with me for the episode today. Please do subscribe to us on BBC Sounds, and you can get in touch with us, we’re on email accessall@bbc.co.uk

Now, this is the bit where we talk about the stories, the disability related stuff that’s been happening in the last week, and one of the big, big, big stories is Ellie Goldstein on Strictly Come Dancing. She is an actress and a model with Down syndrome, she’s been partnered with Vito Coppola, she’s doing great. Kirsteen, have you been watching?

KIRSTEEN- I always watch Strictly when there’s a disabled dancer on.

EMMA- Yeah, me too. I’m particularly invested when there is a disabled dancer on. Now we sort of wanted to get a bit of insight into what might be going on in Ellie and Vito’s training room, so we brought in Jo Banham. Jo Banham has been on Dancing with the Stars in the Netherlands, she’s been on Britain’s Got Talent with a dance partner with Down syndrome, Nathan. She’s had a viral video with Nathan that’s had over 30 million views, and she teaches people with learning disabilities to dance. So you are, Jo Banham, in a unique position to talk about this, aren’t you?

JO- Absolutely. A very, very wonderful position having worked with so many lovely adults with learning disabilities.

EMMA- So how from this unique position do you feel Ellie’s getting on?

JO- I think she’s doing fabulously. I think the first live show people underestimate whether you have a disability or not. It’s always a very intense moment, and there’s lots of emotions and lots of things, and I think to see her having smashed it two weeks running, she’s done such a good job, and her and Vito just have incredible chemistry, which is lovely.

EMMA- They do. They really do have incredible chemistry. And Kirsteen, you used to be a dancer, didn’t you?

KIRSTEEN- Yeah. I was in my last year at dance school training when I got MS.

EMMA- So what’s your burning question to Jo about Ellie’s performance so far?

KIRSTEEN- Well, I mean obviously the personality is the big thing, and that shines through in every move she does. After I became disabled, I got a lot of work as a disabled dancer, and that often involved not just performances but teaching and doing workshops. I work quite a lot with people with learning difficulties, and obviously what can be an issue is just learning the sequences and the steps. What really surprised me with Ellie, was just how complex her footwork was and just how much she was able to remember. Did that strike you, or do you think there’s some sort of technique that they may be using to help?

JO- I think Ellie had done some dancing prior to obviously entering Strictly Come Dancing. I don’t think it was ballroom and Latin, but that all helps, when you’ve had a foundation in dance, I think that really helps with things. But I think what really works with them is Vito and the way he’s training her, he’s really built that level of trust with her. She’s obviously very quick and on the ball at picking up things, and I think he really picks moves and routines that really complement her. Like when she did the cha-cha, you talk about her personality, but all those moves she just shined through in everything. So he picked some really clever bits of choreo to really show off how clever she was and how creative she was, and how much her personality could just sparkle all across the dancefloor.

JO- I thought that particularly showed in the cha-cha-cha, because what she’s got really good is isolation.

EMMA- What’s isolation?

JO- She’s got great rib isolation, so she can move then without the rest of her body doing, and her hip moves are fantastic, I mean that whole piece played to her personality.

EMMA- And Jo, earlier I spoke to you in the dance studio with your class of adults with learning disabilities.

[Clip]

JO- Hi Emma.

EMMA- Hello, how are you? It’s all happening.

JO- I’m very well. We’re literally waltzing right now, aren’t we, Sam, with the team.

SAM- Yeah.

JO- You can see all the team, do you want to give a wave to Emma? [Team wave and “hi”]

EMMA- Hi.

JO- We’re doing a fabulous dance workshop, and we’re doing the waltz, just like Ellie did on Saturday night.

EMMA- Have you ever done the waltz before, Sam?

SAM- Never.

EMMA- What would you say, Jo, is the first thing you’ll need to teach Sam and the others for the waltz?

JO- We were just learning the box step, which is forwards, side, close, which is the one, two, three that Shirley’s always talking about.

EMMA- Okay, brilliant. Sounds like a really good basis and a really good start. Sam, tell me about yourself, who are you?

SAM- So I’m Sam. I’m part of the team. [Cheers from the team]

EMMA- Are you a dancer, Sam?

SAM- Yes, always.

EMMA- And what do you like about dancing?

SAM- I like the swift of it.

EMMA- The swift of it?

SAM- Yeah.

EMMA- Does that mean how fast it is?

SAM- Yeah.

EMMA- And what’s your favourite dance to do?

SAM- It’s got to be the waltz.

EMMA- It’s got to be the waltz. But you’re just starting that one. What one have you done before?

SAM- We did the jive.

JO- You liked the jive, didn’t you?

SAM- Yeah.

JO- That one’s fast paced.

SAM- God, yeah.

EMMA- How do you feel when you’re dancing?

SAM- I feel so relaxed in a way.

EMMA- It’s a way of letting off steam?

SAM- Yeah.

EMMA- And Sam, have you been watching Ellie Goldstein on Strictly?

SAM- Yes, loved her. Loved her.

EMMA- Loved her. What did you like about her on Strictly?

SAM- The costumes are brilliant on her.

EMMA- How about how she moves?

SAM- So elegant, so swift.

EMMA- Is there anything else you want to tell me, Sam?

SAM- I’m actually independent living, just moved in.

EMMA- And how’s that going?

SAM- It’s going all right. Moved in yesterday.

EMMA- Are you living on your own, or are you living with some people?

SAM- With some people.

EMMA- Do you have to cook for yourself now as well?

SAM- Yes.

EMMA- What’s for dinner tonight then?

SAM- Not a clue.

EMMA- Not a clue. [Laughter in background] Well, you’re going to need a nice big feast after all this waltzing. Thank you so much to Jo, and thank you, Sam, as well for bringing us into your dance class, I feel so privileged.

JO- Thanks, Emma. I think the team would love to say “keep dancing.”

EMMA- Is everybody ready? [Agreement] One, two, three.

ALL- Keep dancing!

[End of clip]

EMMA- Is there any moves that maybe Ellie and Vito would be less likely to try, or any dances that would be particularly difficult do you think, Jo, from your knowledge of Strictly?

JO- I think the samba is the curse of Strictly, but I think Ellie will smash that one based on the cha-cha and talking about isolating those hips. But I think the more challenging elements will come potentially with lifts, as the weeks go on we like to see the celebs do more and more challenging lifts. And she’s done a few drops and bits with Vito, but obviously lifting can be quite dangerous and potentially risky, and I don’t know if she’ll have the confidence to want to take... I actually take that back, I think she’s more than got the confidence, but I’m not sure if that’s necessarily where her forte will lie in being lifted.

One thing that would be really great to see Ellie improve on, she picks her feet up quite a lot, which different styles of dance use that action, but in ballroom and Latin we use a lot more connection with the floor. So that would be really awesome to see her work on that over the coming weeks.

EMMA- But that’s interesting, because the judges have been asking her to do that, haven’t they? And I’ve been so interested listening to the judges and how they’re giving their feedback. So you’ve met one person with a learning disability, let’s absolutely say that, but from your experience of teaching people with learning disabilities to dance, what advice would you give to Vito and the judges in terms of feedback?

JO- I think how you deliver that information is crucial. It’s not that you can’t deliver criticism, but I think picking your time and picking your tone is invaluable. And I think that’s true of anybody whether they have a learning disability or not, I think you can really enhance and really build the confidence of a dancer through learning and through criticism, but it’s that choice of how. Those judges’ comments straight after she’d danced, that’s quite a tense moment I think, because you’ve got all these emotions running through your body, you’re absolutely flooded with feeling fabulous about what you’ve just done, and it can then be a bit flat if afterwards the judges have got some sort of more feedback and constructive criticism for you.

EMMA- In terms of your teaching and the workshops you do and everything, what kind of adjustments and differences would you say need to be in place for some people with learning disabilities when they’re learning to dance?

JO- Whether you have a learning disability or not, top tip, make sure you eat. Your blood sugar will affect anything more than any learning disability potentially. But really it’s about getting to know the individual, each individual has their own triggers whether they’re able to communicate that or not. And I think that’s the difference, somebody who may have more awareness of their feelings may be able to tell you they’re feeling overwhelmed. Whereas working with someone with Down syndrome, it maybe is more your responsibility to sort of spot those signs and signals. And they do give them off. So I think Vito’s amazing relationship with Ellie will really help build that, because he’ll spot that and then be able to step in and work out when she needs more time, when she might need a break.

I don’t necessarily think you can group anybody with a disability in one box. I know when I’ve taught, I’ve found a lot of visual learning helps, so I’ve done red sock, blue sock, so rather than left foot and right foot, we’ve put a different coloured sock on each foot. But I also find that works really awesomely again even with those without disabilities, lots of people struggle with left and right.

EMMA- I think I could talk about this all day, this is my issue, Jo Banham, but we are going to have to let you go. And thank you so much for giving us a wee bit of an insight into what might be happening in Ellie Goldstein and Vito’s training room.

JO- Thank you very much, Emma, and lovely to see you Kirsteen.

EMMA- Okay, Kirsteen, that’s enough Strictly talk for now. I know you’d like more.

KIRSTEEN- I know! I had so many more questions.

EMMA- But listen, there is another subject close to your heart that I do want to talk about, and that is wheelchairs, because you have a snazzy wheelchair with a powered attachment.

KIRSTEEN- I do. It goes really fast. But it wasn’t always the case. I used to struggle along in a top of the range Argos one, which was totally different to this.

EMMA- Okay, so you never actually went through and had an NHS assessment and Wheelchair Services and all that?

KIRSTEEN- I did eventually, because after a while everyone was saying, “This wheelchair’s so rubbish.”

EMMA- And was it pride, or what? You’ve been disability sort of activist-y for a very long time, what was it that was making you try and get around in an Argos – no offence to Argos, other markets are available etc – but why struggle along with a high street wheelchair?

KIRSTEEN- I have no issue in saying I’m disabled and using every service that’s going. I suppose I was just a bit of a part-time wheelchair user. But as I needed it more, what became a real issue is I’m pretty small and your standard wheelchair from Argos or anywhere else is quite big, so nothing really worked properly.

And then I became aware that there was this thing called the Wheelchair Service, and I was absolutely amazed that I went along and they said, “We’ll get a chair specially made for you, and you can have Z amount of money,” which was ten times more than my Argos one cost. But I am very lucky because I use a manual chair and it was simple and didn’t need adaptations, and around that time I became aware that the people that need much more sophisticated chairs but can’t get them.

EMMA- Well, this is why we’re talking about this, because a couple of weeks’ ago there was a story on the BBC that Whizz Kidz, which is a charity that helps people under 25 years old to access wheelchairs, have had to close their waiting list because they had 1,000 names on it, and they said that escalating costs and squeezed NHS budgets were the reason why the list has gone so long, there’s such huge demand and long delays.

And actually loads and loads of you got in touch with the BBC with your stories, adults and children. We had Anthony from Reading who he says became wheelchair dependent in 2014, and he got the voucher that you got from Wheelchair Services and he said it was £1,100 in 2014, and he’s just gone to look for another wheelchair – because they don’t last forever, right – and the voucher is still the same amount, even though he says that wheelchair costs have spiralled. So he said the voucher that you get from the NHS to get yourself a wheelchair doesn’t cover the wheelchair anymore, in his opinion.

And then we had Harbinder from London who actually sent us a voice note.

HARBINDER- My son has been waiting 18 months for a suitable NHS wheelchair. He’s been severely affected by long COVID and is now unfortunately disabled. He’s been forced to use his grandmother’s wheelchair but it’s just not right for him. We tried Whizz Kidz, but sadly its closed its waiting list. There are thousands of children with long COVID who now need wheelchairs. Many don’t meet the narrow NHS criteria, others can’t get support from the NHS, and those like ourselves who have NHS support and meet the criteria, still have to wait for years. It’s heartbreaking and utterly awful.

EMMA- A heartfelt message there from Harbinder about her newly disabled son. I mean there’s a lot you’re going through anyway without... there’s a road they’re going down, there’s a journey they’re on, and having struggles with getting a wheelchair to get around is just one part of that, isn’t it?

KIRSTEEN- It’s great though that he can use his grandmother’s wheelchair, but it really shouldn’t be like that. Imagine in the government, NHS, or other authorities, were going round chopping off non-disabled people’s legs, because that’s essentially what you’re doing to a disabled person when you say that you can’t have the wheelchair you need.

EMMA- Strong words there, Kirsteen Knight. We actually got an email to our inbox from Ade in Wales who’s 25, and his family have funded and raised money for every chair he’s ever had. He needs a 14 grand wheelchair, that’s what they’re raising money for just now. One of his issues is – and I’ve looked this up and it is true – he can’t get a powered wheelchair from the NHS, which is what he needs, because he can’t drive it himself all of the time. So he can drive it some of the time, but not all of the time, because he has a cerebral palsy where sometimes his muscles are really, really tight, sometimes they’re totally floppy. Usually someone has one or the other. And he’s got dystonia as well which means shaking, so he needs arms guards, he’s got scoliosis, he needs specialist back support, he needs a special head support so he can drive.

But not driving he says has had a massive, massive effect on his mental health. Like that bit of driving himself gives him a little bit of independence, a little bit of feeling that he has more agency, and he says that with the new very, very expensive wheelchair he’ll be able to drive himself 60% or 70% of the time. So it’s just every family is going through a different thing, isn’t it?

KIRSTEEN- And the issue with electric chairs is a big one. Again when I was getting my manual chair, I was close to needing an electric chair, at least outside. But you can’t get an electric chair unless you need it indoors as well. Or at least in my area, I think every area is different. So there are so many people out there that are not getting the chair they need.

EMMA- NHS England and NHS Wales Joint Commissioning Committee say that they’re working to deliver better services. NHS Scotland say they’re working to protect services. And the Department of Health in Northern Ireland said that by the end of August they had managed to sort people out 87% of the time with a wheelchair within 13 weeks.

Keep your stories coming in. Do you want to talk about dancing? Do you want to talk about wheelchairs? Do you want to talk about travel assistance? Or anything else? Email accessall@bbc.co.uk Or you can send us a WhatsApp, put the word “access” at the start, sometimes it’s easier just to talk into your phone, and you can send it to 0330 1239480. We’re on Instagram and X as well @BBCAccessAll

Kirsteen, it’s been a blast, thank you so much for being with me this week.

KIRSTEEN- It’s been great. Thanks for asking me again.

MUSIC- Jingle.

EMMA- The number of black people sectioned under the Mental Health Act is now four times the number of white people, according to mental health charity Mind, and that’s a figure that has gone up in the past year. The Act as we know it was passed into law 42 years ago and times have moved on. An independent review of it in 2018 recommended changes, and we’re now waiting on a new version of the bill to become law. Ahead of World Mental Health Day, we’re looking specifically at mental health and racial inequality. With us is Kadra Abdinasir, the Associate Director of Policy at the Centre for Mental Health, which challenges policies and systems. And we have musician, Shocka Erhahon, who has been sectioned four times. You’re very welcome to Access All, both.

KADRA- Thanks for having us, Emma.

SHOCKA- Thanks for having us.

EMMA- Kadra, tell me about the Mental Health Act. It’s there to protect people, keep them safe, it’s there to help them get better. But black people are four times more likely than white people to be sectioned. Why is that, and why is it rising?

KADRA- The Mental Health Act is basically the legal framework that is used when severely mentally unwell people are needing to be detained so that they can receive care and treatment. But what we’ve seen over time is these huge racial disparities, as you pointed out. They have been long documented in various government policies and reviews, but in the last year we’ve seen some of the small progress we were making in narrowing down those differences start to creep up again.

There’s lots of factors really that feed into this. We know that many black people who live with mental health problems, they’re less likely to access early interventions, so their problems really escalate to the point of needing to be detained.

EMMA- Why do they not access those?

KADRA- The biggest challenge really is those huge gaps in provision in communities across the country, they simply don’t exist. So we’re talking about things like talking therapies which just aren’t available, so people are having to bottle up their problems.

EMMA- And will this new bill change things?

KADRA- Yeah. There’s some promising things in the bill that the government has committed to. For example, for those who are living with serious mental illness, there’s advanced decision making that they want to introduce, so that when they are detained in the future their wishes and feelings can kind of feed into their plans for their care. There’s some stronger measures around accessing advocacy services, so you have somebody who’s independent that can support you in navigating the mental health system. Those are all really positive shifts, but there’s still some things that we would like to see happen.

EMMA- What would you like to see included in it that’s not?

KADRA- The bill as it stands, some of the positive changes they’re making is introducing new principles that really highlight the importance of there being a therapeutic benefit in somebody’s detention. We want race equity to be one of those principles.

EMMA- So is this the framework?

KADRA- Yeah, PCREF. So that’s the Patient Carer Race Equality Framework. This is basically NHS England’s first anti-racism strategy. It will require all mental health trusts and providers to co-create with their communities and to raise this strategy to really bring down some of those disparities that you touched on earlier.

EMMA- But it’s not in law?

KADRA- It’s not in law. So that’s why we want to see that protected through the Mental Health Act, yeah.

EMMA- Shocka, tell me just a bit about yourself and your experience with mental health?

SHOCKA- Well, I’ve got a long-!

EMMA- I’m listening.

SHOCKA- Yeah, I’ve got a long battle with mental health. As you mention, I got sectioned four times, and I got diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

EMMA- And you’re a musician?

SHOCKA- Yes, I’m a musician. I started in a group, I was in a group called Marvell. Not Marvell like the superheroes, but we was kind of like superheroes.

EMMA- You felt like superheroes.

SHOCKA- We felt like superheroes. We was a group from north London, we did incredible things, we toured with Skepta, we toured with Diversity, the group that won Britain’s Got Talent.

EMMA- Oh yeah.

SHOCKA- Where my mental health journey started is when we lost our record deal, and that’s when I spiralled into depression and I end up getting sectioned for the first time.

EMMA- Why do you think that had such a profound effect on you?

SHOCKA- What it does to your identity, because it’s like your whole identity is derived from the thing that you’re doing.

EMMA- So what did it do to your identity?

SHOCKA- It totally crashed it, it shattered it, because I realised I didn’t know myself outside of music. I had to rebuild myself from scratch, like who am I now, there’s no music now. And also what people don’t realise as well is how cold the industry can be.

EMMA- Right, so they will just drop you and that’s it, you’re gone.

SHOCKA- And we had no idea about that, we was young kids, we was like 18/19.

EMMA- And was there any mental health support there for you before?

SHOCKA- No, there wasn’t support like how it is now. And that’s why I wanted to touch on the stats of black males being sectioned, because I’m a black male myself and I’ve been sectioned a few times, so I can take you into the psyche of what we need to take into consideration of a young black male is how much they’re dealing with. I was doing a live interview with someone and he said something to me that struck me, he said, “I can’t imagine what it feels like to be born and be immediately pre-judged just because of your skin colour,” it’s like as a young black male you feel unwelcomed.

EMMA- Tell me about the first time you got sectioned.

SHOCKA- Oh my god, the first time I got sectioned was in a hospital called St Ann’s, which is in Tottenham. I was there for five days. Those five days felt like an eternity. It was such a shellshock for me because I knew those places existed, but I never knew that I would end up in a place like that.

EMMA- What was happening when you were taken in?

SHOCKA- Oh, I had a big breakdown. I came home one day, I was screaming, shouting, trying to break things. Luckily one of my uncles was a doctor and said, “We need to get him an ambulance, he’s having a manic episode.”

EMMA- And how were you treated?

SHOCKA- The only problem I had was I had a little altercation with the nurses. I think after two days into my sectioning I kind of came back to myself and I tried to leave, and I got injected, and then I woke up in this room with my mum looking through the flap telling me that it’s all going to be all right. And that was extremely traumatic.

EMMA- I know you got sectioned a few times, and same time of year each time, right?

SHOCKA- Yeah. Every two years, every December. So when December would come around it’s like my body goes into like a subconscious shock. I remember my friends used to have this joke in a group chat, every time December comes they’ll be like, “Where’s Shocka? Make sure he’s safe so his mum doesn’t call us.”

EMMA- Do your friends support you?

SHOCKA- Yes, definitely. I had a great support system. But they supported me in their own way with jokes and not making me feel different, not making me feel unhuman. I think one of the main things that happens when you get sectioned as a patient is that you feel less than human.

KADRA- Yeah.

EMMA- What kind of supports have you had mental health wise?

SHOCKA- I didn’t go through therapy, and I think it was a culture thing.

EMMA- Yeah, tell me. Because I mean it sounds like you had PTSD, you were struggling with the trauma of the first time you were sectioned, the record deal, your mum got really sick. It sounds like you were a prime candidate for therapy.

SHOCKA- Yes, everyone can’t believe I haven’t been therapy.

EMMA- You still haven’t been?

SHOCKA- I still haven’t been. They was like, “How have you been sectioned four times and you haven’t been therapy?” But luckily now I’ve learnt more, there’s different forms of therapy.

KADRA- Yeah.

EMMA- Okay.

SHOCKA- Some people use adrenalin. Some people have a relationship with god. I use my artform. If you listen to my music it’s extremely personal. Sometimes I forget that it’s actually music, that I’ve got to make it catchy, because I’m just venting in the music.

EMMA- Right. So how does it help you?

SHOCKA- It helps me stay true so that I need to get out of my system without having to say it like in a situation like this. I’ll just turn the lights down, no-one would be in the studio, it’s just me and the engineer. And I can’t even believe that he’s hearing what I’m saying, so sometimes when I come out we look at each other. But he’s cool. But therapy is not our first way, there’s still a lot of shame around that.

KADRA- As Shocka was touching on there, the power of creative arts. When I mentioned early interventions earlier, that’s the type of support we want to see expanded in communities, so finding ways of integrating creativity into the therapeutic journey and process. We also know for many black communities faith is really important to them, so going to like faith groups and organisations. That’s why it’s really important to upskill faith leaders around mental health so they can talk to their congregations. It’s been historically disproportionately black men, but we’re actually starting to see so many more black women being detained.

EMMA- Why is that?

KADRA- Do you know what, again there’s stereotypes placed on both genders, for black men to be strong, and for black women to be strong in different ways. So being seen as much more resilient and not having vulnerabilities.

EMMA- Kadra, we’ve spoken about PCREF a little bit, it feels like a really important part of narrowing those gaps.

KADRA- Yeah. The Patient Carer Race Equality Framework, it’s all about embedding anti-racist practices within the mental health system, not just within mental health hospitals but more broadly in community. Just to give you an example of some of the work I’ve been involved in that’s a product of PCREF in Lambeth. They have been working with mental health support teams in schools across the borough to upskill them around cultural competency training. They recognise that young people from black and brown backgrounds weren’t accessing mental health support in schools at the levels they would have hoped, so the programme was able to upskill those workers to better engage that group in services.

We want the Mental Health Act to really enforce this programme as a statutory requirement so that all mental health services are fulfilling it as a duty and as part of their equalities’ requirements.

EMMA- And it’s guidelines for delivering services?

KADRA- It’s guidelines, but it’s all about being co-produced with communities. So that’s a key part of it.

EMMA- So what Shocka was talking about in terms of people not going for therapy first, maybe going to their church because that suits them better, PCREF is kind of about upskilling the mental health workers who support them to know that that’s an option, and to speak to them about what would be the best way of getting their feelings out there and helping their head.

KADRA- Yeah, exactly that. We’ve got so many assets within diverse communities that we really need to harness, so faith groups, community led organisations. It doesn’t just have to be that medical NHS approach really. So it’s about giving people flexibility and choice in the type of support they serve. This is also important for white people, disabled people, lots of different groups, all of us should have the right to choose the most appropriate form of support really.

EMMA- Okay. And you’re worried that this PCREF might be set aside?

KADRA- I mean the sector as a whole is a bit concerned because it’s a bit unclear if it will remain a priority of government or not.

EMMA- We asked the Department for Health and Social Care if they recognised the racial inequities that we’ve been speaking about, and they said:

FEMALE- We recognise there are significant and concerning racial disparities in the rates of detention under the Mental Health Act, particularly for black people. That is why we are modernising the Mental Health Act, to ensure people with the most severe mental health conditions get better and more personalised treatment regardless of their ethnic background.

EMMA- We also asked them whether PCREF will become law?

FEMALE- It’s going to be a key part of making these reforms work and will remain a legal obligation for all providers of NHS commissioned mental health services, but it will not be a statutory requirement of the current bill.

EMMA- Kadra?

KADRA- We’ve had lots of conversations with government, and like I acknowledged earlier, there’s so much to welcome in the bill. But what we’re really concerned about is that we started with this whole reform journey on the basis of unacceptable inequalities for black and disabled people, and we now have a bill that doesn’t actually even mention race equity. So from our point-of-view it’s not really good enough, we really need the law to be like super-clear on these issues.

EMMA- Shocka, what’s next for you? Are you doing music at the moment?

SHOCKA- Yes, I am. I’ve got so much music sitting there waiting to go.

MUSIC- Music clip from Shocka.

SHOCKA- I’m also working on my second book.

EMMA- Oh yeah? What’s the first book?

SHOCKA- The first book was called A Section of My Life.

EMMA- Oh.

SHOCKA- I wrote it while I was sectioned.

EMMA- That’s your Instagram and your book then.

SHOCKA- Yeah. [Laughs]

EMMA- Yeah, excellent. And what’s the second book?

SHOCKA- The second book is called Obedient to the Core. It’s more a faith book.

EMMA- Okay. Is it about mental health at all?

SHOCKA- Not really. That was the end of that chapter.

EMMA- What, your whole life’s not about mental health now?!

SHOCKA- No. [Laughter] That’s why it’s called A Section of My Life, it’s only a section!

EMMA- Are you trying to tell me that you were a full and rounded person, Shocka?! [Laughter] Thank you, Shocka. Thank you, Kadra. And as I say, we will definitely be following this topic throughout the bill becoming law, and beyond as well. So thank you for joining us on Access All.

SHOCKA- Thank you for having us.

KADRA- Thank you.

MUSIC- Jingle.

EMMA- That is it for this episode of Access All. If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard and you’ve not subscribed already, please hit that big button on BBC Sounds and then you will have Access All down on your device every single week at least once, and sometimes we throw in a little special just to keep you on your toes. You can email us, accessall@bbc.co.uk, and you can send us a WhatsApp voice message or a text message on 0330 1239480. Why not follow us on social media, we put up some lovely videos, and that is Instagram and X @BBCAccessAll. Thanks for listening, see you next time. Bye.