"Seeing my first goal in years made me teary"

10th December 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Ep 190

Presented by Emma Tracey

EMMA- Hello, I’m Emma Tracey and this is Access All. One of the most passionate disability activists I have met in my 20 years of reporting on disability is Mat Fraser. He was one of the children affected by thalidomide in the 1960s and he has short arms as a result. He embraced his difference and bought into disability history, being involved in modern freak shows, acting in big American TV series, and then even presenting this very podcast back in the day with Liz Carr. Later Mat and I will talk about a new disability archive project. But here’s how our conversation started:

MAT- Well, at the moment I’m getting over a condition called IT band syndrome.

EMMA- What’s that?

MAT- Well, the IT band runs from the outside of the hip to the outside of the knee and joins in at a big gristle junction at the hip, as I call it, where the piriformis, gluteus maximus and the TFL all join.

EMMA- [Laughs]

MAT- And if, like myself, you have been a sporty chap for most of your life and then suddenly had both hips replaced [laughs] and are now a little bit different physically it manifests in weird pains. It’s been quite debilitating. So, I’ve experienced something that some of my disabled friends have that I’ve never had which is constant pain all the time for the last three weeks. I’m okay now. And it’s crazy how it changes you, Emma.

EMMA- How does it change you, Mat Fraser?

MAT- It turns me into Mr Grumpy from Grumpington.

EMMA- Oh [laughs]. And I just think this is interesting to talk about because you’ve got short arms and you are very sporty as well you really gave your hips, you put them through it, didn’t you?

MAT- Well, I certainly earnt my new hips. I wore out the old ones, compensating for the lack of reach that I have with my arms, so picking teacups up with my toes while I’m doing the washing up and bringing it into the sink with my foot, if you can imagine that. It’s a lot of hip and knee action going on there. So, yeah, had both of them replaced and things are different now.

EMMA- Can you still do that with the cups?

MAT- I can. What my surgeon told me was to stop doing the martial arts.

EMMA- Ah.

MAT- He said you can go straight back to full contact martial arts and I’ll see you again in ten years, or you can give that up, start yoga, and it’ll be 25 years before I need to see you again. So, I took his advice. How about you, how’s the old physicals with you?

EMMA- All good, Mat. Same, still blind.

MAT- What!

EMMA- Yeah, I know.

More of that conversation later on. But now let’s dive in to the rest of the show.

MUSIC- Theme music.

EMMA- Yes, I am Emma Tracey. This is Access All, the disability and mental health podcast from BBC News. Please do subscribe to us, if you haven’t already done so, you can hit that big subscribe button on BBC Sounds if you’re in the UK, and for the rest of the world you can find us wherever you get your podcasts. Please do get in touch with us, we love to hear from you. You can send us a voice message or a text message to our WhatsApp 0330 123 9480. Or you can email accessall@bbc.co.uk. Do stick around to the end of this episode because I do have a little bit of news to share. But of course you’ll stick around, we’ve got the bold Mat Fraser in a few minutes, and we’ll also be talking about football for all you big soccer fans out there.

But first, it was the year that saw the end of the Vietnam war, Jaws was in cinemas, and 1975 was also the year that the Disability Law Service officially launched, which means it just celebrated its 50th anniversary. The CEO of the

Disability Law Service and a lawyer himself, Andrew McKay, is with me to tell me more. Hi, Andrew.

ANDREW- Hello.

EMMA- What is the Disability Law Service?

ANDREW- The Disability Law Service, DLS, is a really exciting charity and its vision is to provide free legal, social welfare and professional advice to deaf and disabled people and their families and their carers. Our services are always free, and that’s really important because deaf and disabled people disproportionately make up a higher percentage of people in poverty. And we do have some legal aid funding. The levels have dropped over the years and it’s very difficult to cover costs on legal aid alone, so we’re very grateful for law firms and trusts and foundations that have also provided some funding for us.

EMMA- Now, when we think of law we think of being in court, but your work is a bit broader than that.

ANDREW- Yeah, absolutely. People do think of lawyers as being the people that turn up in suits and argue in court, but actually we on a day-to-day basis work with clients who are facing real struggles with getting adequate housing, or people who are struggling with community care, who have struggled with discrimination in the workplace. The big difference that it makes in people’s lives is having people who have experience and compassion and understanding coming alongside them and just simply helping them understand what their rights are, secure what they need and help them through the process of resolving the issues that they have.

EMMA- Now, tell me about some of the Disability Law Service’s most impactful and proud cases?

ANDREW- Well, let me share one story. Amy was born with quadriplegic cerebral palsy, she was a wheelchair user, she had impairments with hearing and speech, incontinence, dysphasia and learning difficulties. And she was in a council house with two bedrooms with her mum, stepdad and two twins. She didn’t have enough space to be able to live with dignity. And for over ten years her family had struggled with the local council to get access to appropriate housing. They were then directed to DLS and we were able to engage the council, and within a couple of years they were then able to

be moved out into a far more appropriate housing for Amy and for her wider family. And it’s those kinds of examples of what might feel insignificant, but having your needs met is so deeply important.

EMMA- Because you’ve been to the European Court of Human Rights, haven’t you?

ANDREW- That’s right. In 2014 Liz McDonald, who was our client, she had had her nighttime care taken away and was left with incontinence pads instead. And the argument that we put to the council and then through the courts was that that impacted on her dignity and her human rights. And the judgement recognised that local councils do have discretion to make decisions about their budget, but it made it really clear that local authorities, governments need to take into account the human rights and the dignity of disabled people in the decisions that they make.

EMMA- You must get more queries than you can manage, do you?

ANDREW- That’s the unfortunate thing about where we are right now: the demand for our services is skyrocketing with the political climate, with the changes to the welfare system, the cost of living crisis. There is an awful lot of need, and far more than we’re able to meet. So, we do our best. We will if possible give advice and assistance on a phone call or by email to try and resolve issues. And if necessary we will bring them on as clients and try and work with them.

EMMA- It’s so interesting hearing about those cases, and very interested that you’ve been going for 50 years. How did the Disability Law Service start?

ANDREW- DLS began as part of a group of families with disabled people who had been struggling to get access to their rights, to get access to appropriate education. And they came together, they met each other and recognised that there was a need for supporting each other and formed a charity called Kith & Kids. A number of them were lawyers, so they set up what became the Disability Law Service.

EMMA- And what kinds of things are you seeing?

ANDREW- The proposed changes to the benefits regime, the changes that have been put in place and may still be put in place have been very unsettling to many people trying to understand what the impact is on their day-to-day life. The changes to

Access to Work and indeed the increasing delays with being able to access the government system to enable…

EMMA- So, that’s the scheme where disabled people get some extra costs covered of being disabled and in a job.

ANDREW- Exactly. And we’ve seen that, not just with our clients, but also internally because we are a deaf and disabled people’s organisation so over 90% of our board have lived experience, and 90% of our staff team have lived experience. But that also brings with it the reality of having to navigate Access to Work and the complex bureaucracy can be very off-putting and very difficult for people with disabilities to navigate. And we are a team of lawyers and we find it tricky.

EMMA- You had a case, didn’t you, in the last few years with an autistic client who needed support and wasn’t getting it?

ANDREW- That’s right. One of the things that we have prided ourselves on I think over the years is being able to recognise where there are themes coming through. So, one of our lawyers, Pria, had increasingly been working with families with children with autism and had noticed a pattern where families were struggling to get the care that they needed from their local authorities for their autistic children unless they were able to show additional disabilities. We then worked with an international law firm to undertake a research project which showed that 91% of local authorities in England and Wales were failing to meet their duties of equality. And we were then able to work with the BBC at the time to highlight that case and to secure promises from those local authorities that they would either review their policies or update them to bring them into compliance with the law.

EMMA- Andrew, you have ADHD, tell me about how you became involved with the Disability Law Service?

ANDREW- As somebody who’s had a relatively late life diagnosis it’s been really profound. I navigated my way through school and university and various workplaces and always struggled and always felt a bit broken. And in getting that diagnosis it was liberating to realise that I wasn’t broken; my brain was built differently. And it really helped me.

EMMA- There will be people in university who have ADHD or think they might have ADHD and are studying law and thinking how am I going to become a lawyer. Because law when we

think of it we think of deadlines and we think of quite narrow ways of doing things. What strategies have you got?

ANDREW- I look back at my university career and my first couple of years I really struggled because I struggled with independent learning and with meeting deadlines, and didn’t do very well. And then one of the aspects of ADHD is hyperfocus, and moved from a pattern of failure to doing excellently and finished third in my year with one of the highest marks that one of my professors had ever given out.

EMMA- Because it became a hyperfocus for you?

ANDREW- Exactly.

EMMA- Oh my goodness. Was that just luck do you think that your brain just clicked over into that?

ANDREW- It just did. And that’s been a pattern in my working life. But now that I understand more about myself I’ve started to be able to identify tools that have been helpful for me.

EMMA- Like what?

ANDREW- One thing I really enjoy using is something called Brain.fm, which is an ADHD music tool which gives just enough musical stimulation but without being distracting, which is really helpful for settling and focusing. I feel that I do really well when I’m able to be in a dynamic situation. I’m very good at crisis management. I sometimes struggle with the mundane email and admin, and so that helps.

EMMA- And you’ve actually made a difference to the people that you work with as well as for. DLS has trained some people up?

ANDREW- That’s right. One of the things that we’re most proud about has been the longstanding team that we have. We have a history of bringing people on as volunteers, enabling them to become paralegals and then trainee lawyers, and then qualified lawyers, and then continuing to train them up. I’m really proud of the fact that we’re bringing people through their legal journey as deaf and disabled people. And it makes a difference because having the lived experience in whatever flavour makes a difference; it allows you to approach a client with compassion and with understanding.

EMMA- Fantastic. Andrew, tell us where to find Disability Law Service.

ANDREW- So, we have a website that sets out all of the ways that we can help deaf and disabled people dls.org.uk. We’re also on social media, on Facebook, on Police Guy.

EMMA- Andrew, here’s to 50 more years of the Disability Law Service, and maybe I can talk to you again on the centenary.

ANDREW- That would be lovely [laughs].

EMMA- Let me take you back to a couple of weeks ago when I spoke to former BBC News editor, Mark Mardell. He had found himself in a difficult situation with Turkish Airlines as a passenger with Parkinson’s.

[Clip]

MARK- They came back and said, ‘You need a letter to fly’. We assumed that meant to prove that I did have Parkinson’s, which seemed a bit strange. But no, it was actually because it’s the one condition they ban from flying without a letter.

[End of clip]

EMMA- Now, I did ask Turkish Airlines for a statement before the interview but it didn’t arrive in time for the recording. The other day though one popped into my email, and Turkish Airlines seemed pretty apologetic about the whole thing. They have now removed the need for a fit to fly letter for passengers with Parkinson’s. And Mark Mardell, you fought doggedly to make that happen, and fair play to you.

Clarence emailed us to thank us for the podcast, and we really appreciated your message, Clarence. Clarence loves it so much that they’ve gone back to the beginning and they’re currently at 2019. Lots and lots and lots of episodes to go on that feed for you, Clarence. And you know, you could also go back to the beginning if you wanted to. You have endless disability news and interviews to listen to on the Access All feed. Clarence has mental health difficulties and says that our inclusion of mental health in the podcast helps them feel like they’re part of a community and that that’s neat. Yes, I think so too. Clarence hopes we go on forever. Thanks for your support, Clarence.

Now, remember last week we talked a lot about IDPD, International Day of Persons with Disabilities or Disabled People Day, Disability Day, whatever you want to call it. And we thought it was cause for celebration. Now, someone else who thought the same was Dave Buxton, the CEO of

Action on Disability which is based in Hammersmith and Fulham in London, and they threw a party. They had 70 guests, they watched four disability led short films, disabled actors performed a Christmas carol, and they had some music to end. Oh my goodness, I love that, a disability party. Myself and Dr Shani Dhanda were saying last week that there should be one in the summer and one in December. Let’s keep that idea going, lads.

MUSIC- We’re not just a podcast. Find Access All on social media and read our articles on the BBC News website.

EMMA- Now, you heard him at the start. Let’s jump right back in to my interview with Mat Fraser and talk about Disability Arts Online new archive project. Here we go:

One of your big passions is disability arts. And the national organisation, Disability Arts Online are asking people to share their experiences of disability arts before they lose it, they say. So, what is disability arts and why is it thought it might die out if something is not done?

MAT- Well, disability arts as I understand it is artistic practice by disabled people that speaks in some way of their disabled experience, which we understand through the social model of disability.

EMMA- Okay, we’re going to have to just roll back a wee bit. So, without getting ourselves tied up too much in knots, quick lesson.

MAT- Oh, you mean a model, okay. Medical model: I’m a chap with short arms as a result of my mum taking thalidomide. The medical model would say that I am the problem and that I need aids to make me be more normal. The charity model would say, oh this poor guy isn’t normal, we’ve got to give him some money to buy those aids to make him normal. The social model says no, society needs to become more adaptive and accepting of people different like him, and we need to provide physical and attitudinal access to make, render him an equal. And so as disability artists who perform and write and paint and create music and visual stuff we speak of these experiences in our work, and that’s what disability arts is. Why is it important? Well, I’m very mindful of the fact that Graeae Eye Theatre Company, the first all disabled led theatre company in Europe that started in 1981 recently lost our founding member, Nabil Shaban. Now, he’s a legend of

disability arts in theatre. And for the last three or four years I’d been thinking somebody should interview him about his life’s work, and now it’s too late because he died. It’s a really poignant example of why it’s important to have a disability arts archive and to have it celebrated and talked about, because if we keep losing these founding fathers and mothers of disability arts we’re not going to have the proper stories of the people who were there at the time.

EMMA- And of course, as we know from hanging out with lots of disabled people, sometimes disabled people have shorter lives and die of different things and die suddenly. You don’t want to lose any more of those stories. So, the organisation Disability Arts Online have managed to get a quarter of a million pounds from the National Lottery Heritage Fund to create an archive which will be online. What are they going to be collecting? And how are they going to do it? And from whom are they going to do it?

MAT- Well, it’s a three-year project starting next year. Its main project aims I’d say will be safe storage and heritage of disability arts movement, from being lost, fill in the gaps that we have of existing knowledge, share the stories in a digital archive that’s interactive timeline and a podcast series so that people can access this information and history in their own time, in their own way. And also to support the development of a culture that embraces disabled people’s stories.

EMMA- Are they collecting songs, pictures?

MAT- Yes, everything, songs, anecdotes, pictures, posters, collections. I just found a ticket for a Crip Arts gig – sorry, crip, cripping, like queering is the use of a reclaimed word to apply a disability lens to culture.

EMMA- The project that has the word crip in it as well?

MAT- Yes, that’s right. And so in the olden days of the ‘90s we would go on a demonstration because there was no accessible public transport, there was no accessible this, that and the other, and then in the evening we would do a crip cabaret with invariably Johnny Crescendo, Ian Stanton, all these oldsters of the ‘90s disability cabaret scene were the crips who were making the songs. The crips who made the crips, if you will, that became the chants, that became the slogans. It was all very much part of a wonderful burgeoning culture where we felt liberated. And it’s really important that this

liberation is kept as an archive and there’s stories of it. I mean, thankfully I don’t believe I’m going to die any time soon [knock knock], knock on wood.

EMMA- [Laughs] that’s good, you can see this project through, Mat Fraser. That’s excellent news.

MAT- Yeah. You know, only the other day I got a new cupboard so I had to get all my old bits out and put it back in the cupboard, and I saw all these scrapbooks of the crip cabarets we’d done all through the ‘90s. There’s reams of stuff that I’ve got, and I’m actually going to donate it to the archive.

EMMA- So, one of the things you said there is a lot of those cabarets created some of the slogans for disability rights activism. What would you say now, Mat Fraser, was your favourite slogan that you came up with?

MAT- I think Rights Not Charity.

EMMA- Oh, that was not what I was expecting actually. I was expecting Piss On Pity.

MAT- Piss On Pity was of course one of my favourites.

EMMA- That slogan has lasted the test of time.

MAT- Absolutely.

EMMA- You got into Disability Arts when you became politicised you always say. Tell me about that.

MAT- Well, there I was not understanding why I was so angry politically. I went on the Free Nelson Mandela march, I went on the CND march, I went on the Women’s Rights to Control Their Wombs, Abortion march, all those marches. And then my friend, who was a radical Marxist feminist, Mika, my surrogate mother, took me on a Disability Rights march. And I went with her because if she went on a march it meant it was a good march. Then I saw my people. Now, of course I didn’t realise she’d thought to herself, this chap needs to get in touch with his people, and that’s what happened. And I went on my first Rights Now march and I never looked back; I’d found my tribe: disabled people who were angry at the way we were treated by society as lesser, and wanting to do something about it using the methodology that I’d grown up to love, which was pounding the streets, having a poster and shouting slogans.

EMMA- And using disability arts for that as well?MAT- That’s right. I’ve got footage on my old video A camera, which I haven’t converted to a digital file yet, at the end of a cabaret in Edinburgh singing Proud, Angry and Strong. [Singing] Proud, Angry and Strong was one of the thematic chants of that movement. But let’s get back to the disability arts.

EMMA- [Laughs] has disability arts changed a lot?

MAT- I think it has. I think it’s become more…well, it’s the same with acting. Back in those days disabled actors had had no training and had just decided to do acting. Nowadays if you’re a disabled actor you’ve been to drama school and it’s all proper. And it’s the same with disability arts, I think there’s a lot more accomplished artistry going on. But at the same time we reject that notion of proper and not proper, like oh, if you went to the Royal Academy it’s proper, but if you didn’t then it’s not. And we don’t want it to be physically or attitudinally gatekeeping to our disability arts.

EMMA- But is it less activisty than it used to be?

MAT- Maybe. Yeah, I think in general it’s become slightly more about the so-called “quality” of the art, rather than the message. Although both are equally important and both intertwine inexorably within any piece.

EMMA- Do you still practice disability arts would you say? Because you’ve been in a lot of mainstream stuff now.

MAT- I do. When I’m acting, the last thing I was in I was the music shop owner that was really a gun seller in Gangs Of London, and I got shot at the end of the scene and that was that. That really didn’t have much to do with disability arts, except people watching would go oh right, I suppose a disabled person could sell guns, [laughs] or whatever it might be.

EMMA- Yeah, you’re still fighting the good fight, like [laughs].

MAT- My own work does go further than that and is always disability arts. The last three things I’ve done have been pantos over in America. And very important to me is to embed disabled people in status roles where they’re fun and talk to the audience. So, everything I do is disability arts by its very nature, and things I write. I mean, I don’t write a story unless it’s got a disabled character in it or a situation to do with social disability. But I’m 63 now.

EMMA- What? No, you couldn’t be! Impossible.

MAT- [Laughs] well, thank you, very kind of you, but I am. And that’s okay. I’m the same age as Obama. What I wanted to say is we need younger people’s stories, so this is a call to action for the public. I’m going to use this platform of talking to you to say to listeners out there if you have a connection to the movement and you would like to share your story please register interest. Those details will come up at the end of the programme as well. But it’s really important that we hear from you, not just the same old seven people that it was.

EMMA- What if there aren’t enough stories, Mat? Do disabled people have it better now? Are there less angry people connecting or are they just doing it in a different way?

MAT- I think they possibly are doing it in a different way. But maybe the message is the same: there’s a disenfranchisement around disabled people; younger disabled people of the Gen Z persuasion might not be feeling as supported by the government as perhaps they might do and they might want to do artwork about it. Disability arts can be very politicised, and sometimes if the only way to get out your political and social angst is to create a piece of art then create it, because it helps speak about the experience to other people, it helps you deal with the experience yourself. It’s a lot of things disability arts, and we want all of the stories and the versions of what it can be to be brought in to this archive. But you also get younger disabled kids who haven’t been through that grist and that mill who find what they’re doing is just natural disability arts from their own perspective. And I think that stuff is really, really valuable too.

EMMA- They can do it themselves, like you guys did with your cabarets, they’re making their content online. They can’t maybe get on television, they struggle to work full time in the industry, but they’re doing what you did in a way and grassroots and making it themselves.

MAT- I know. It’s brilliant.

EMMA- Quickly, just as we finish, tell me a story.

MAT- Okay. I went for an audition for Judge Dread. This was the moment that made me realise I was disabled. I had read the magazine religiously and it was full of mutants in a sci-fi picture of a dystopian future. And I went to audition and the casting director said to me, ‘We can’t give you a job in this as a mutant because you’re a real mutant’.

EMMA- [Laughs]

MAT- And that blew my mind. And I ran crying to Kit Wells at the National Disability Arts Forum. He put his hand on my back and said, ‘Tell us all about it’ and I broke down in tears, and I told four other disabled people what had happened. And I never looked back. And from that moment I was a disability artist, I was protected, and I was encouraged.

EMMA- Brilliant. And Mat, for all these people who are listening, what can they go and watch you in?

MAT- I pop up here and there in the film for the BBC Then Barbara Met Alan. I’m not sure if it’s still on the BBC archives or on iPlayer but I curated and contributed to a series of disability monologues called Criptales in 2019.

EMMA- That was amazing.

MAT- So, I’m on a thing called Loudermilk and I play Roger, the English one. Funnily enough I got butt dialled 3 in the morning. I get called by Peter Farrelly, he wrote and directed Loudermilk, and for one split second I thought, I’m back! But no, it was a butt dial.

EMMA- [Laughs] Mat Fraser, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for talking to me and telling us about Disability Arts Online’s new internet archive.

MAT- Not at all, Emma. It’s always a pleasure. Lots of love for you and all the disabled people around the world.

EMMA- And the all-important web address to contribute to that archive project is disabilityarts.online/cripping/culture.

While the rest of us are easing ourselves into the festivities things are ramping up for one man. Neale Ormstead is about to be the first visually impaired person to commentate on a premier league soccer match. Neale, that’s exciting.

NEALE- Very. Anxious as well [laughs].

EMMA- Ah no, don’t be anxious. What match are you going to be commentating on?

NEALE- Crystal Palace versus Manchester City.

EMMA- I mean, you’re not starting small, are you? That is a big fixture. When is it?

NEALE- It’s Sunday, 2 o’clock kick-off.

EMMA- So, you have a few days to get ready. Who will hear your commentary, Neale?

NEALE- It’ll be the people that will be using the audio sets for the game, so anyone that we have there that’s visually impaired, ADHD, things like that, they use them.

EMMA- So, it’s specialist commentary more detailed for blind and visually impaired people and other people who could benefit from it?

NEALE- Yes.

EMMA- Okay. Now, you’re visually impaired, Neale, how are you going to do this?

NEALE- Basically I’ve been very lucky that I’ve got a headset that’s been designed and done by a company called GiveVision. I trialled it with them just over two years ago now and I badgered Crystal Palace quite a bit, and eventually Crystal Palace have taken it up. And we now at Crystal Palace have the use of it every home game. And the first time that I trialled it I got a little bit teary because I saw my first goal for two and a half, three years and it was just amazing. So, this technology is fantastic.

EMMA- What can you see without the headset?

NEALE- Without the headset from where I sit I can just see to the edge of the pitch on my side. Once it goes past that into the goal box I can’t see; it’s all just blurred. And that’s just basically with my left eye; I can’t see anything with my right eye.

EMMA- So, tell me, how does this headset work then to help you see it more clearly?

NEALE- Obviously you have the two options on there: you can have the normal feed so that you’re just looking around as normal, or you go to a live stream which is basically the TV company, whoever is filming the game, you get what they’re showing to the people at home. And with the use of the little Nunchuk hand controller I can change the contrast, I can zoom in, zoom out, I can split between if I want normal camera feed, so if we’ve scored a goal and I want to look over towards our other fans cheering, things like that, I can switch to that and then go back to the livestream.

EMMA- That’s great. But the good thing, it sounds like you can take this headset anywhere. Who can use it and where can they

use it? It sounds like it’s not restricted to Crystal Palace or to a football ground that has to install loads of stuff.

NEALE- Not at all. I’ve trialled it at the Vaudeville Theatre in London with the show Six. I used it when we went to watch Devil Wears Prada.

EMMA- I like your choice in musicals, by the way.

NEALE- [Laughs] my wife’s more than anything. But it’s anything, you know, if there’s a boxing event, athletics, it’s been trialled and used at the Paralympics.

EMMA- So, tell me, let’s get back to this commentary on Sunday, how are you feeling about it?

NEALE- A little nervous and anxious, excited as well. It’s something completely new, never done it before, so it’s just a case of being me talking football, and just trying to make sure that what I’m seeing through the headset I’m transmitting that information to the people that are listening.

EMMA- Listen, good luck with it. I’m really excited to find out how you get on, and hope you enjoy yourself.

NEALE- Thank you so much. Thank you for the time.

EMMA- That’s it for another episode of Access All. Thanks to my guests, Andrew McKay, Mat Fraser and Neale Ormstead. And a particular thanks to you, our lovely listeners. You never fail to bring a smile to our face or a tear to our eye with your lovely, lovely messages. We can’t always broadcast every single one but we do read them all.

Just to give you a bit of notice, early in the year Access All will be going from weekly to monthly. Now, I’ll still be here by your side with the best of disability news and interviews. And I’ll also be popping up in other parts of the BBC reporting on disability and mental health. We’ve still got three weekly episodes to go, and next week I’m very excited because it’s our quiz, and you can play along at home. See you then. Bye.