Mainstream inclusion with Tom Rees, Kellie Bright and Marsha Martin

Nuala McGovern: Hello, Nuala here and welcome to Episode 4 of SEND In the Spotlight.

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Well with me all in our studio are a fantastic group of experts, and we're going to discuss teaching SEND pupils in mainstream schools. What's working and what is not? Now the man who is advising the government on how to do that well is here -Tom Rees. He chairs the Department for Education's Expert Advisory Group on Inclusion.

We also have Marsha Martin, who is a founder and CEO of Black SEN Mamas - a network of over 7,000 families across the UK and beyond.

We want to welcome back Kellie Bright, SEND Mum an actor.

And also joining us is Helen, a teacher who wants to talk about perhaps something unexpected - when mainstream inclusion works too well.

And ‘In the Spotlight’ this week as we celebrate achievements big or small, 7-year-old will from Doncaster, who has taught himself to swim.

I should say, full transcripts of every episode are available on the BBC website.

Let us get started.

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So it's not only the new year, it is also the new term for children at school, or perhaps it's a new month of homeschooling or alternatives to traditional education. Maybe your child is going to a forest school or a farm school, or perhaps you are dreading the year ahead because your child or young person is not in school at all.

Kellie, January, we often say it's a time for looking and planning ahead, what's on your mind as you look forward?

Kellie Bright: Um, interestingly, I actually had my son's annual EHCP review yesterday. Which coincided with the first day back to school. And I always appreciate it because it is a time where I actually get to hear much more about how my son is actually getting on at school. And what I mean by that is; end of year reports are all very much about assessments and tests and, the academic side of things, And this actually gives him and us a chance to reflect on how he's actually getting on. And it was a really.. it was a good meeting, especially for him because lots of it was very positive and I think that is really valuable.

I'm very interested to talk about this topic that we're doing today, because obviously I have children who are all at mainstream schools. One of my children has an EHCP and I have two children who are waiting for assessments, not for an EHCP, but for diagnosis. So, I am very interested to see how this plays out. And this talk around inclusion, because obviously for me it's a very hot topic. It's very important. I want to make sure that we as a country get it right.

Nuala McGovern: And the EHCP, I know most of you listening will know this, but it's an education, health and care plan, which means, with that document it outlines what your child is legally entitled to.

Kellie Bright: Yes.

Nuala McGovern: Whether they get it or not is one of the conversations we have been talking about here.

But Marsha, good to have you with us. Why did you set up Black SEN Mamas?

Marsha Martin: Uh, I think mainly because I felt that there weren't enough spaces that were culturally reflective in terms of the experience of black mothers of neurodivergent children.

I, for myself personally, I was prompted to do this because I had moved to a predominantly non-black area and I had faced a lot of explicit racism and that trickled down to the early years SEND parenting groups. And I just had to kind of make the decision as to whether or not I wanted to navigate ensuring that my child had a great quality of life as a person who was disabled, alongside navigating something like racism. And I just wasn't prepared to do that for my mental health, for my child's.

And I set up a group on Instagram, wasn't really expecting much. Now we're at over 7,000,

Nuala McGovern: Which I was mentioning,

Marsha Martin: Right.

Nuala McGovern: I mean that is.. What do you think when I say that figure?

Marsha Martin: Um, I, I understand it. I don't think there are many spaces like this for us. And it's a testament to the fact that this is something that was needed within our community. So, the demand is increasing, but we don't turn anyone away.

Nuala McGovern: Yes. And so, you're doing that for the public. You talk a little bit there about your private life instead, you're also a neurodivergent woman. You have three children, I understand in three different settings. We heard a little from Kellie there of what she is experiencing with this new year. What about you?

Marsha Martin: Yeah, I think, it's almost like a social experiment because I have one child who is home educated, on an Education Other Than a School package, and this is the first time that I've been without anxiety because now that she's not in an environment whereby she's struggling, we get to see her progress and grow and I'm really excited and keen to start that for my middle child who is eight, she's autistic with ADHD. She struggles in the school setting that she's in. She's in an academy and where I was fighting for the EOTAS package for my eldest daughter at the time..

Nuala McGovern: So that's Education..

Marsha Martin: ..Other Than at School, I didn't have the spoons to secure an EHCP for my middle child. But what did happen was through years of fighting, we did get a SEN Passport. And that basically is similar to an EHCP, but it's just not legally enforceable. So effectively it means provision can be removed at any time and in the past they have done that before we had the SEN Passport. So, the only source of anxiety is how long they'll be doing the SEN Passport for.

Nuala McGovern: You talk about, you know Marcia, this groundswell that came towards you once you created this space. And we've been finding as well just so many emails that have been coming into us to send@bbc.co.uk over the festive period as well. I want to thank everybody who did get in touch, do keep them coming.

Here's one, this is an anonymous SENDCO, a SEND Coordinator, a teacher who supports pupils with SEND saying, “Great to hear your podcast on SEND good representation from parents and government. What about the people at the chalk face who have to try and interpret EHCPs in a variety of schools and deliver what they are legally required to do, with limited resources and high expectations?’ They sign off ‘Concerned SENCO’, and it's a very good point. In a couple of minutes, we will be hearing from a SENDCO who's very much on the chalk face, as you call it. Thanks for getting in touch.

We also have this message.

“While the series is described as covering SEND in its breath, the focus and representation of families so far has been largely on autism or neurodivergence. This is, of course, a significant and important part of the SEND landscape, but it's only one part of it. I'm a parent of a child with Lennox-Gastaut Syndrome involving severe epilepsy and severe learning disability. I've also observed a broader trend in recent years in which Neurodivergence increasingly dominates public conversations about SEND. And I'm concerned that this can unintentionally leave even less space for the voices of families supporting children with complex disabilities for whom mainstream education has never and will never be an option.”

Well, thanks also, for bringing that point of view to us. We do value all your feedback. We are aiming to represent a broad range of your experiences as we continue with the series. So do keep writing in. Kellie and Marsha have also been reading some of our emails. Kellie, what have you got?

Kellie Bright: I have got this, so Nikki emailed to say “I don't usually listen to podcasts, but I kept seeing clips of Kellie Bright and Anna Maxwell Martin on my Instagram feed, so I had to listen. I cannot thank you enough for doing exactly what the title says, shining a spotlight on the broken SEND system. I've been battling with it since September 2022 when my youngest child started mainstream primary school. He's quite a complex little character, which is making everything so much more difficult.

Most days, I feel like I'm constantly fighting fires trying to do right by him. I'm writing this at 1:00 AM because I've been trying to wade my way through his EHCP paperwork ahead of his review next week.”

Nuala McGovern: That will resonate with you, Kellie, no doubt. Marsha, you also have a message.

Marsha Martin: Yes, I do. This one's from Faye who responded to the last episode about navigating Christmas, and she says, “So many aspects of these experiences are lived daily by parents of children with any condition. Dialling down expectations, not just for Christmas, but holidays, sports clubs, achievements, sleep, LOL, but conversations and interaction too. There is also the mystique of having a child with their own unique qualities that you have to earn the knowledge of, and then navigate solutions for.”

Nuala McGovern: Thanks very much. Do keep those emails coming - send@bbc.co.uk.

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Now, education reporter extraordinaire, Kate McGough is back with us. Hi Kate.

Kate McGough: Hi there.

Nuala McGovern: You're back on the SEND beat.

Kate McGough: I am, yes. New Year, but not new topic.

Nuala McGovern: Let us take a moment with you to talk through first what mainstream inclusion means. And also what the different types that are out there are.

Kate McGough: Yeah, that's right. I think that the most common form of inclusion that people might recognise in mainstream would be in classroom support. So that could be targeted one-to-one support from a teaching assistant or maybe a pupil getting some time out of class to regulate or using visual aids. It could be a huge variety of things really. And you don't need an EHCP to put that in place necessarily. But so many EHCPs might specify, you know, a teaching assistant is needed for a certain number of hours a week.

But I think inclusion also means better teacher training. The DFE have emphasized that inclusion should mean responsibility within the whole school to be inclusive. And so that could be improving training for teachers and support staff. There has been some progress on, you know, introducing, SEND specific training for new teachers, but there is more that needs to be done, I think, around upskilling existing teachers in mainstream to recognise, SEND and intervene and provide the right support.

But. Also, you know, there has been a big chunk of money announced that we talked about last time, there's 3 billion pounds, which is about creating physical spaces within mainstream that pupils with additional needs can go to. And so schools can also set up this kind of special units within a mainstream school.

Kate McGough: Sometimes with the support of councils and they can be called different things in different places, but the main two kinds are SEND Units and Resourced Provision.

Kate McGough: So, a Resourced Provision is basically, it could be a building or it could just be a part of a school. Uh, and it's where pupils are taught for at least half their time in a mainstream class, but they have this base as somewhere that they could maybe do smaller group work or get a bit of extra support. Whereas SEND Units, very similar thing, but it's kind of flipped. You might spend most of your time in this separate unit and just dip into the odd class. But they are, relatively rare. You know, if you consider, we've got about 24,000 schools in England, last year the most recent stats showed there are about 1,200 schools with Resourced Provision, about 500 with these SEND units. So relatively few, but they are increasing.

Nuala McGovern: I want to talk about Ofsted, the regulatory body. Now they're going to judge on inclusion as well as the more traditional aspects of attainment, progress, attendance. Can you explain a little bit more how that will work?

Kate McGough: Yeah, this is a new Ofsted framework that's only been in place since November so it's still quite new embedding in.

Nuala McGovern: Mm-hmm.

Kate McGough: But you might have seen all the stuff about changing the one-word rankings, but for the first time, schools will be judged on how inclusive they are. Um, it'll be one of six areas that schools are judged on; You've also got curriculum and teaching, attendance and behaviour, that sort of thing.

They'll be looking at SEND pupils inclusion, but also pupils from low-income families and other groups who are protected by the Equality Act. And so, essentially what Ofsted inspectors will be looking for within that, in how they're making these judgements is, ‘Does the school have high expectations for all of their pupils, including those with SEND? Is their early identification? Are they getting the right targeted support?’ That type of thing.

But I mean.. Which has been really welcomed as an idea, but a lot of critics say it might not be enough and they might almost be competing you know, if you've been judged on your exam results and you're also being judged on inclusion, there is a question mark over, will it be enough to change the tide and to make some schools more inclusive?

How do you stop things like off-rolling of pupils with SEND from certain schools, and how do you change your culture? But it is, you know, a significant change that inclusion is in the middle of these inspections.

Nuala McGovern: And, and we'll talk about that also with my guests. We have been hearing in the papers over the last couple of weeks, about possible changes regarding mainstream inclusion. Can you tell us briefly what that is?

Kate McGough: Yeah, there was some reporting in the Times over the new year, raising the possibility of changes to EHCPs, particularly around children with moderate needs. And the reporting kind of suggested that schools would take over from parents. When it comes to negotiating with councils about putting support in place, leaving EHCPs as we know them for the most complex needs, which would kind of be similar to how it works in Wales at the moment.

This reporting also suggested that parents might keep a route to appeal, but it wouldn't involve the court system, but obviously none of this is confirmed. We will only find out in the White Paper when it comes. And the government did say that these were speculative claims and that, you know, they didn't represent the policy proposals.

So, the things that we do know that are happening are a couple of pilot schemes already going about improving inclusion. You've got one around recognising speech and language issues in the early years. And another one that's in over a thousand schools at the moment around improving teacher training, about recognising the needs of neurodiverse children.

So, there are pilots going on, but obviously we're going to have to wait till the White Paper to find out, you know, the exact plan.

Nuala McGovern: Thanks very much, Kate. We will be checking in with you again.

I'm delighted to introduce our next guest. He's a former primary teacher and head teacher, he's currently CEO of one of the UK's biggest chain of academy schools, plus, he's dad to a son with SEND, and he chairs the Department for Education's Expert Advisory Group for Inclusion. That's quite an introduction Tom Rees, welcome to ‘SEND in the Spotlight’.

Tom Rees: Thank you very much. It's nice to be here.

Nuala McGovern: Now you started, we were hearing about the chalk face earlier. We can call it the chalk face. We can call it the coal face. Uh, you were a primary school teacher by training and then were a head teacher. What did that teach you about SEND provision?

Tom Rees: Well, I think that I come to this work with both professional and personal experience and I think that it's one of the reasons I feel so invested in it. And I've said for a long time that it's the thing that we need to focus on most in the education system. So, I've said consistently it's the biggest area of reform, and you know, I think back to my time in the classroom, but I have to say that was quite a long time ago now.

Nuala McGovern: Yeah.

Tom Rees: And through this work, I think I've been really keen to make sure we listen to the voices on the front line today. Because I think the challenge is that you know we're hearing views from parents on..you know.. you've heard today and, and on the podcast so far, and from professionals are different. You know, they're, they're much bigger and more significant than they were, certainly when I was in the classroom as well.

But I suppose there are two things, maybe. One is that lots of it is about increasing specialist knowledge and professional knowledge. And lots that we can learn from different parts of the system and from new evidence.

But a lot of it is, you know, about getting to know children well and getting to know families really well. And sometimes I think we can, you know, you can overcomplicate things when it's about that. And you know I've said, the Expert Advisory Group, which I chair is an inclusion Expert Advisory Group, not a SEND Expert Advisory Group.

And that distinction I think is quite important because although lots of the answers to this are about SEND policy and what's going on in the SEND system particularly, lots more about wider things that are happening in schools, things around teacher quality, supply, retention, areas such as inspection and actually things outside of the school system as well. So, thinking about things like health, thinking about children growing up in poverty today, and thinking about lots of the other things that cause barriers in young people's lives.

Nuala McGovern: And just to give people some context to the role that you have away from the Government's Expert Advisory Group, you are the CEO of a big academies trust. What does that mean?

Tom Rees: So, we run 45 schools across the country, uh, for Ormiston they’re all over the country from Grimsby and Runcorn in the North down in the South, on the Isle of Wight. We're over in the East in Lowestoft and Yarmouth, you know, parts of the country with real industrial heritage and history, Stoke and the West Midlands.

And we run primary schools and secondary schools. We also run alternative provision and specialist schools as well. And I think that's really important, particularly in a conversation around mainstream inclusion that we say very clearly that specialist provision and alternative provision, you know, in my view, should and will always remain a really central part of that. And although we want more children to be able to achieve and thrive in mainstream schools, we also know that for some children, specialist provision will be the right setting.

Nuala McGovern: So that's some of your professional roles. You also, as I alluded to have a son with special educational needs and disabilities. I'd be curious, and I'm sure our listeners would too, of how that has shaped your view of the current SEND system.

Tom Rees: So, I often say I feel like I've experienced the best and the worst of the, of the SEND system. And not just the school system actually, you know -Health, wider services.

Um, I feel quite old now my son's 20, so we're dealing with adult life now as well. But he has a learning disability, he has Down Syndrome, a diagnosis of autism amongst other things as well. And about 20 years ago we set up a parent support group for families affected by Down Syndrome in our county. And that's grown from, you know, four boys at the time, to now supporting 60 plus families. And I think that for lots of people, like you've heard on this podcast, being a parent is also characterised by a lot of that work as well, being part of support groups, either leading them or supporting others. And I suppose one thing I try not to do is ever think that my experience is representative of everyone's experience. I have only my experience of this, and I think through the, the work of the Expert Advisory Group, I'm always very keen to make sure that we ensure we hear a diversity of views.

Nuala McGovern: Which I think we were also hearing from somebody who got in touch that, you know, they want to see that breadth of experience because SEND obviously can represent so many situations for so many children.

But you are now in the thick of it at this older age, as you say, which you're really not! Advising the government about how best to do inclusion well in mainstream schools. The government's Expert Advisory Group for inclusion started a year ago. Why do they pick you?

Tom Rees: Well. I feel really privileged to chair a group that's got so much, um, experience and expertise. So, in the Expert Advisory Group where we have, you know, an education psychologist, we have a special school head teacher, somebody who runs alternative provision in lots of different local authorities. We have a DCS from a local authority.

Nuala McGovern: DCS?

Tom Rees: Director of Children's Services, who obviously brings lots of really relevant experience from that perspective too. You know, being able to do that in a number of different ways. So, some of that has been about engaging externally. The Schools Minister, Georgia Gould, is currently leading this national conversation on Sunday.

Nuala McGovern: Yes,

Tom Rees: I know. She was on your podcast.

Nuala McGovern: Yes. A number of episodes ago. Yeah.

Tom Rees: And you know, so I've been able to go and support her in regional engagement up and down the country. Doing some things in the department as well.

And then more practically, the group meets monthly. Works directly with civil servants as they've been working through some of these policy questions to be able to give them challenge and advice over the last year.

Nuala McGovern: How much influence do you think you have?

Tom Rees: Well, I think what I would say is that the ministerial team and the Secretary of State, Bridget Phillipson are really committed to this issue. And I wouldn't be doing this role if I didn't think that was true. And I think we've seen a real commitment to both wanting to address this properly, but also to take the time and to engage with different, important stakeholders. You know, I'm optimistic about the White Paper, that will come this spring, and the opportunity for us in a way that we just haven't done for a long time, to meaningfully address this challenge that we have.

Nuala McGovern: So, I was struck by a couple of things you say there - very committed, there's communication as you say, and you're optimistic about the White Paper. So, you feel they're on the right track with that?

Tom Rees: So I think, you know, one of the things that you already talked about was the announcement before Christmas, the capital announcement and all that. That's capital and it's quite specifically about buildings and estates.

You know, the commitment to mainstream inclusion.. the idea that we need more children to be able to go to their local school and experience success. I think if we think about that in quite a simple way. That's one of the things that we're really trying to do. And we should acknowledge that over the last five years we've seen an increase of over 50% of the proportion of children who are now going to a specialist school place and who aren't in a mainstream school place. And that's more than we've ever had as a school system. So, there's been a really significant movement away from children being in their local school and being successful, and I think that that's so important. Not for all children, you know, some children will need a specialist setting and that might not be that it's not, not locally available, but for the vast majority of children should be able to go to their local school with their friends to grow up in their community. I think that is a good thing for those children. I think it's a good thing more generally for society that children with disability are known to their local community. They feel like they belong in their local community as well. And so some of this is about schools, but I think some of this is also about the sort of society that we want to be.

Nuala McGovern: So with that, and as you talk about, uh, the investment the 3 billion pounds to fund 50,000 specialist places, you're speaking there about many of them being within a mainstream setting?

Tom Rees: So, in the announcement, the government gave flexibility in terms of how those places could be created. So, it did two things; One was to enable 50,000 new specialist places. And yes, some of those could be through expanding special units in mainstream schools or satellite provision, which is another way that you can create specialist provision that's run by a specialist school, but it's located on a mainstream site. And these are, you know, these are ways where children can still access specialist provision, but they can do it on the same site as the mainstream school.

Nuala McGovern: But do you think those decisions have been made on what way it will actually shake down?

Tom Rees: Well, I think that this commitment to mainstream inclusion, obviously there's multifaceted and there's lots of different parts to that. And some of it is about how you create places and where children go to school. And there are a lot of practical things about that. For example, you know, parents who have children in three different schools.

Nuala McGovern: Mm-hmm.

Tom Rees: You have the manage different drop-offs, all of, you know, just very practical, logistical things that make life hard for people. But I also think there are, you know… There is much more to do that we already touched on and you know, things like teacher training. We've heard about the role of Ofsted and one of the things which was, there's a big focus actually in the, the school system at the moment, is this notion of adaptive teaching and how we can make classrooms more accessible by design so more children can be successful in the classroom.

Nuala McGovern: Uh, let's talk about staffing. From your experience about best practice in schools, how will there be enough teachers and teaching assistants to make this work?

Tom Rees: So this is a really important question. I think it speaks to the point I made earlier about inclusion being, you know, wider than simply SEND policy.

Because the thing that matters most in schools, the thing that schools do above anything else. That makes a difference in children's lives is the quality of teaching. We know evidence tells us consistently that more than anything else, the quality of teacher, classroom teacher is the thing that makes a difference.

That's true for all children. It's particularly true for children who find learning the most difficult. And so I don't think we can separate out this question of, uh, teacher supply, teacher retention, teacher training from the question of special educational needs and disabilities. And I think we've made some improvements to teacher training, both in-service training and initial teacher training over the last few years, but that hasn't been experienced by all of the profession. It's been quite focused mainly on early career teachers, those in their first two years of teaching. But the two groups, for example, that haven’t benefited from that investment in teacher training would be longer serving teachers and also teaching assistants. And I think, you know, teaching assistants are such an important part of this workforce do such valuable work across the country, but haven't felt that same investment in training and development that early career teachers have.

Nuala McGovern: Because, you will know as many listeners will too, reading, a leak in the Times recently, there was speculation that there could be a possible cut in the ratio of teaching assistants to pupils. Do you know anything about that and what has your experience been at best practice?

Tom Rees: It's definitely not for me to comment on speculation in the press.

I think that any talk of change is really unsettling, and so I think it's unhelpful to speculate about those sorts of things. What I would say is that, you know how schools use their resources, their teaching resource, their teaching assistant resources to support their pupils is obviously a really central question.

And through the Expert Advisory Group, one of the things that we've been able to do is commission a project called Inclusion in Practice where we've run a call for evidence nationally to find some really bright spots, some good examples of where inclusion's happening to exactly try and answer these questions.What are the staffing models that are really working well?

Nuala McGovern: Mm-hmm.

Tom Rees: And that's so interesting because, you know, from schools in Bradford to London to Exeter, we've seen some really different but very successful ways that schools are managing their resources, using their teaching assistants and their teaching staff, to support the needs of their pupils well.

Nuala McGovern: So, it can be the way something is rolled out as opposed to always money?

Tom Rees: Yeah, and we've seen before where, you know, good policy, good policy design hasn't led to the impact that it should do because of the way it's been implemented.

Nuala McGovern: Really interesting. Thanks, Tom. You're staying with us, I'm glad to say.

I do want to read a statement from the department for education.

It says, “We have launched the biggest national conversation on SEND in a generation alongside work already underway. Including at least 3 billion pounds for more specialist places, better training for teachers and earlier intervention for speech and language needs. Our plans for reform, which we will set out in the coming months, will protect the parts of the system that parents need and value and set out a path to fix those that are so clearly broken.”

And of course, many awaiting, that White Paper.

Well, now listening to that has been Helen, a teacher and Special Educational Needs and Disabilities Coordinator in a mainstream secondary school, which has a great reputation for inclusion, but that according to Helen has been something of a double-edged sword. You're very welcome.

Now, in your email to the BBC, you said ‘being inclusive has backfired on us as a school.’ How come?

Helen: Basically, because within my local authority, we've now got this reputation that we are the school to send your child to if they have an EHCP and so we have parents from all around our local authority putting us down as our parental preference, and we have just become so overwhelmed with numbers that we are now no longer able to put in place a lot of the measures that we have in place. We don't do anything that is revolutionary or massively different, nothing that any other mainstream school couldn't do. But because we do have those measures in place, we are the desirable places to send children.

Nuala McGovern: So, you say you have 112 students with EHCPs?

Helen: Yes. So 9% of our school cohort either have an EHCP or a registered SEN

Nuala McGovern: So, about 9% and why do you think schools in your area have fewer SEND pupils?

Helen: Because of the impact it probably has on some of the things I think that were mentioned before, like their league tables, maybe funding, the fact that they probably have to employ more learning assistants in order to meet those children's needs. I think there's a lack of willingness to do it. I think there are so many small factors that influence it. The culture set by the Senior Leadership Team, maybe. Um, we're also affected in our area by the fact that some of our schools are selective; so children have to sit an 11 plus type exam to get a place in those schools. And feedback from some parents that I've spoken to has very much been that they have been discouraged on sending their children to these schools.

Nuala McGovern: So what would you like to see happen?

Helen: Accountability. I think local authorities need to ensure that all schools are putting in place the measures and the support that's needed in order to meet the needs of these children, rather than just depending on certain schools that are willing to do it. I think all schools need to be willing and up for taking on these students.

Nuala McGovern: And how, how would they do that, do you think?

Helen: I think Ofsted can play a part in this. I mean, it's great to see that Ofsted have, you know, put inclusion as much more of a focus. But if schools are not being held accountable for the fact that they're not meeting the needs of the children in the local community, so I would like schools to be asked, you know, how can you possibly be an outstanding school when you only have 1% of your school cohort registered as having HCPs or SEND when a local school down the road has 9%, how can that school be outstanding? Yes, they might have fantastic exam results, but at the end of the day, they are failing I think, a large part of their local community. How can the children in that area go to that school? Why are parents having to choose schools that are, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 minutes drive away because that's a school where they feel that they're going to get their needs met. The utopia is, for me, every child gets that amazing experience where you get to walk to school with your friends. You get to hang out with your friends after school, but a lot of children with SEND are not getting that experience.

Nuala McGovern: And, you mentioned parental preference there, that that's what they're putting down is your school, I'm just wondering what the relationship with parents is like.

Helen: We have, I like to think a really good relationship with our parents. I often feel like I'm a bit of a doom and gloom merchant because at the moment, I'm spending a lot more of my time telling parents what we can't put in place. You know, they've heard about these great things that we do as a school. ‘Oh, you do this and you do that.’ And I'm having to say, well, actually we can't do that at the moment now for all of our children. Only the children that have perhaps, higher level of need, more complex needs are now able to access some of the support that we've had in place that previously was available to all our students.

Nuala McGovern: Because it's oversubscribed according to you?

Helen: Because we have too many.

Nuala McGovern: Uh, we approached your local authority for comment. Here's what they sent us.

This says, “We've taken an innovative approach, creating more places in the short term through expanding existing special schools, delivering specialist resource provisions in mainstream schools, and also investing in large scale building projects to create entirely new special schools.

We have ambitious plans to continue to develop capacity to support pupils with, SEND both in mainstream schools and through the creation of additional special school places. We will add a further 1000 specialist places for children with EHCPs to access the educational support they need by 2030.”

Helen: To me, this isn't about special school places. We know we need more special school places. We're talking about children that don't need special schools. We're talking about children that want to be and can be educated in their mainstream schools. There is an initiative going on in my local authority, and I'm a part of that in which we're going to be reaching out to those schools that don't have the same kind of levels of Children with SEND that we do, to try and encourage them to support them with putting some of the measures in place that we do. So, there is a willingness out there, but this is, I think, much bigger. This is every school, every school stepping up and doing something to support these children.

Nuala McGovern: Really interesting. Thanks for that. Helen.

Tom Rees is still here, as are Kellie Bright, our SEND mum and actor Marsha Martin, CEO of Black SEN Mamas. Um, so Helen speaking there about perhaps unintended consequences of successful mainstream inclusion, in that SEND parents and local authorities choosing the good inclusive school means that other schools, according to Helen, aren't stepping up. There's nothing to stop that is there, Tom?

Tom Rees: Well, I, I think you're right to say that there are, there's lots to system can do. And you know, this is one of the challenges that we have in the system at the moment is the inconsistency. We've got some schools that are doing fantastic things, but that's not felt everywhere. And so there are questions for, you know, policy around how you get more of that. And there are questions for the system about how we can work together to do more of that too. I was struck by Helen talking there about something that has so many different potential responses, legal responses to what Ofsted might do, uh, in response to that, but also opportunities probably for schools to collaborate more closely locally, thinking about all children within their local area and how schools can take responsibility for all children in a, a local area.

Nuala McGovern: And I suppose it means if the will is there and the incentive perhaps to do that too. Kellie, I'd love your thoughts on this.

Kellie Bright: I've got so many. (laughter)

Nuala McGovern: Go for it.

Kellie Bright: I've got so many. Um, I, I wanted to, um, I had a little chat with Helen earlier and, and she said that her school has a Resourced Provision attached to it. And I said, well, that's why you are popular. Because what, Kate, just to pick up on what Kate said earlier about there're being 1700 schools, mainstream schools with these resource units or SEND Units attached to them at the moment, out of 24,000. I mean, it's nothing. I know for me and where I live, there aren't any, and if there was one available, I would've sought it out for my son. A hundred percent. So, I think again, that is something that definitely needs addressing. But I, there are a couple of things. Yes. Obviously training for teachers, but teachers do an awful lot as it is, and I know that for me, the people that are teaching my son are the people that are making the biggest difference in his life hands down.

Nuala McGovern: Yeah. Which Tom agrees with you on that.

Kellie Bright: Forget the piece of paper.

Nuala McGovern: Mm-hmm.

Kellie Bright: They are the people day to day, but if you are going to have children with special educational needs and disabilities in mainstream classrooms, you are going to need lots more. There needs to be a huge drive on recruiting occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, educational psychologists. These are people that are missing. As it is, they are hard to find. This is what causes huge delays in assessments and, uh, children getting the right help.

Nuala McGovern: Marsha, your thoughts on this, what do you and the families you work with at Black SEN Mamas think about the government's potential plans for inclusion in mainstream settings?

Marsha Martin: Yeah, I think the, the main focus for the mums currently is on the ringfenced funding that is supposed to go towards SEND and inclusion, within mainstream schools being specifically surrounding building spaces and places, and bricks and mortar, so to speak. And we really want to know, and we're keen to see when the White Paper does come out, how it specifically stipulates what steps are now being taken to propel us from where we are now, whereby we are failing in this capacity at this smaller scale to where we'll have more children that have more varying levels of needs in this space.

All we know is that buildings are being made, but we don't necessarily know enough about how we're addressing teacher retention, which Tom mentioned before, how we're addressing the teacher training. They don't know enough about neurodivergence. They're giving at best, a half a day of SEND training. And that's SEND on the whole, right? That's not speaking about specific neuro minorities. And then we don't look at it through an intersectional lens. We don't see how things like poverty, how race, how having a co-occurring disability or condition might also impact presentation within the school setting.

And then the training doesn't speak about how to specifically implement provisional support within a classroom with other children with the varying needs. It just doesn't feel like there, there is practical advice speaking on how that's going to be addressed. And I want to ensure that they are not just using the budget to create even more spaces within which to fail our children, because that would be a travesty.

Nuala McGovern: But is there anything, Tom, you know, that you've seen, that you've heard that would alleviate the concerns that Kellie and Marsha are making?

Tom Rees: I mean, just to pick up on the point about speech and language therapists and wider professionals. I think that's such a good example of an area where we know it's really prevalent and actually we should expect it more, particularly in the early years. It's really usual to have a need for speech and language support and input. And some of it is about how you might need to bring specialist support into a school or around a school. But some of it is about knowledge and expertise that could be mobilised into school workforce so that it's there. One of the things that we talk about quite a lot is how we can make schools more inclusive by design. The idea that you don't need to wait until you know a need presents, but you expect the need and then you staff and train around that.

Nuala McGovern: I was just wondering, coming back to you, Helen, any more thoughts? We've talked about Ofsted, for example, inclusion might be one of the aspects that they're going to be measuring, but also still attendance.

Helen: Yeah, and I think attendance is an area that is very problematic for mainstream schools. You know, we want to be able to think flexibly and creatively in the way that we want to perhaps offer provisions to young people and perhaps in a way that they're part of their time in school, part of their time doing some learning at home. That might be with tutors or online tutoring or with mentoring or in alternative provisions or things like equine therapy, for example. But, it's very difficult because we are hemmed in by the attendance laws, which means that then it looks like that child's not attending school. We're not allowed to put it down as that child is, you know, is attending. So, their attendance numbers slip. So, our SEND numbers attendance slips, and we need to be able to rethink the way that attendance is measured and done in schools.

(Sig)

Nuala McGovern: Now I thought you might like to know what other topics and perspectives we will be featuring on the podcast over the next couple of months. In the next episode, we'll get a local authorities view on the SEND crisis, also coming up transport, specialist schools, attendance and fines, and we'll hear from specialist workers such as educational psychologist and speech and language therapists. No doubt they'll also have their thoughts on this matter. And of course, we'll bring you news of the school's White Paper as it comes. So don't miss an episode. A quick reminder, you can watch videos from or ‘SEND in the Spotlight’ recordings over on the Woman's Hour Instagram account @bbcwomanshour, and it's great just to see that community that is building up, over the conversations that are taking place in the comments about the videos, all sharing your experiences and advice with each other, which is brilliant to see.

But it is now time for our weekly hit of celebration, putting someone in the spotlight who has been suggested by you, the listener, and this week it is the turn of 7-year-old will from Doncaster, who has taught himself a key life skill last summer. Let us hear from him and his mum Sian.

TAPE

Swimming SFX

Sian: So, Will you taught yourself to swim? Could you tell me what you did and how, how you did it?

Will: Well first you already know, but I'll tell you. I just copied what I saw and focused on mummy trying to catch her.

Sian: Didn't you sink loads?

Will: Yeah, but I also just teached myself how to swim.

Sian: What did it feel like when you, finally realised that you could swim and that you taught yourself?

Will: Uh, okay imagine a world and imagine it exploding.

Sian: So William has PDA, which stands for Pathological Demand Avoidance, and what that means is that he gets a fight, flight, or freeze or flop response to demands. So that could be, um, obviously being asked to do things, but it, it can be demands in any form. So, it can be the demands that your own body gives you, like being hot or cold or needing the toilet or being hungry. And it can also be demands for things you want to do. Um, so a really good example would be going to the beach.

Beach SFX

Sian: Hey Will, what's it like?

Will: Good.

Sian: Yeah. Can you make a splash for me? (Laughter)

He's had to kind of really balance his determination to learn to swim, uh, against the kind of repeated failure that you have when you learn to swim. And one day he just cracked it. He just, something clicked. And, you know, all that day he'd swallowed loads of water. He was getting really tired and he, he just did it. And the look on his face of pure delight and the freedom that it gave him to play and enjoy himself on holiday, it was incredible to see the achievement. And I thought, good for you.

Splash SFX

Sian: Why did you want to teach yourself how to swim?

Will: Um, (gargles)

Sian: Are you trying to say to stop yourself from drowning?

Will: Yeah.

Sian: He, he really is an inspiration to me and, and our family and the other adults in his life in determination. And keeping going and sticking with it. And when I have moments where I think, oh God, this is just so hard when he's had a really tough day and things just seem so tricky and he's anxious and we're all worried and we are, we're all crying I think this is the boy that taught himself to swim. He will be okay.

SWIMMING SFX

Nuala McGovern: What a lovely story from Sian and of course, 7-year-old Will. Hope he enjoys all his swimming and keep it going.

Well, that is all for this episode. Thanks so much for listening and thanks to all my guests. Remember next week we're talking to a local authority trying different approaches to the send crisis.

We also want to hear from you, particularly if you work in a council and you deal with EHCP assessments for children with Special Educational Needs and Disabilities. We want to know what it's like being on that front line, and what do you think people should know about it? You can talk to us anonymously, if you would like just email, send@bbc.co.uk. For now it is …

ALL: Goodbye

Nuala McGovern: ..from all of us!